Non maille articles
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As a member of M.A.I.L. do you think non-maille articles should be approved?
Yes
84%
 84%  [ 16 ]
No
15%
 15%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 19

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Joined: June 17, 2007
Posts: 532
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Non maille articles
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Posted on Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:23 am || Last edited by anon on Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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Hiya, as suggested by Drax this is a thread to discuss non-maille articles,
(due in part to this thread ... http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=9439
(and the admin thread discussing the issue)
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=9509

Quote:
Hey everybody, I need to bring up some issues, because we currently have an article on how to make the jig in our articles queue.

You may have seen my post in the admin section. I thought I would post here to get others in on the discussion. As much as I love the turk's head rings (and have made many myself), they technically aren't maille, but wire art. And this is a site about chainmaille.

The current recommendation that I am getting from other admins is that we not accept the tutorial on making a ring-jig because it isn't maille-related. We all agree it's very cool, though.

I'm sort of torn myself. But I guess for me the issue I come down to: where are we drawing the line between chainmaille and other wire arts?

Just food for thought. Please discuss, or maybe in another thread so as not to completely hijack this one...


I agree that it is a non-maille article, and i would not be upset or offended if it is not approved, (if this is the case and if I get approval from the admins I'll post the info as a thread so those interested do not loose out)

I would like to see a section for non-maille wire art, but I'm not sure if it is something that matches the intent of M.A.I.L

Quote:
Article 2 - Intent
2.2 - The Organization
The stated intent for the creation and existence of M.A.I.L. is to be an international group of artisans dedicated to the advancement of maille art and maille-related arts. Our aim is to create new techniques, weaves, and patterns, expanding the knowledge of both novice and master, and to increase public awareness of the art and industry of maille.


I'd like your thoughts, hopefully they will help the admins.

I am more than happy to abide by any decision by the admins, they work hard to provide an excellent resource, and as has been pointed out wire-art could cause a increase to their work-load that isn't directly related to maille, and I'd rather find some other way (such as a thread if permitted) to share this information, if having it as an article would be detrimental to M.A.I.L. but i think the more important question is where the line should be drawn, so that both admin and members know what should be approved and what should not.

Edit:

It might also help if you can state where you think the line should be drawn ...

I would like to see wire-working articles, but in their own section so as not to detract from maille, as I feel there is a certain overlap in the materials, tools and techniques used, and so information from other forms of wire-working would be easily available, (and might be of relevance to some in making maille)


Maille Code V2.0 T5.4 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg$i C$p G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N16.16 Pt Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 Hc
Articles - Byzantine Speed Weaving - Poor Man's Tumbler - Ring Jig - Turk's Head Knot Ring - Wire Winding
Maille - Belt - Choker w. Padlock - Collar - Collar with Twist - Cuffs - Cuff 2 - Decorative Chains - DS Belt - Maille Cuffs - Micro Ring - T Shirt - Vambrace - Watch Band - Watch Chain
Non-maille - Ring - Ring Mk II

Joined: October 27, 2006
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Posted on Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:40 am
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The way I look at it is that it uses the same material that Maille does, wire. It may not be strictly maille, but I feel that as long as we don't let too many articles like that in, or add another category for it instead it wouldn't take away from the main ideals of M.A.I.L. I don't think this website would ever deviate from being a maille hot-spot if we allowed it in. I say go for it, it's worth it Very Happy

Joined: August 14, 2006
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Posted on Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:00 am
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I can see their dilemma. After all it is M.A.I.L., not W.A.I.L. (Wire Artisans International League).

However, I do not think it would be amiss if there was a "Related Topics" or "Other Wire Projects" category in the articles section for wire, or even other metal form constructive hobbies.

Heck, there are already articles that, while not directly maille articles, are here for some sort of potential reference. Leather Basics? Not even metal, but are we saying that maillers won't/don't/haven't integrated leather into a hybrid project? Loop in Loop (an by extension, Foxtail) isn't technically maille (is it?), but we have an article on it for those who are interested. And then there are the articles about constructing displays. While they are not directly about maille, they are undeniably useful to certain maillers.

Anyway, I think it's a worthwhile offshoot to explore and add to the site.


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

Joined: October 27, 2006
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Location: Boise, ID

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Posted on Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:09 am
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Quote:
Anyway, I think it's a worthwhile offshoot to explore and add to the site.


Better than the way I put it...Smile

Joined: June 17, 2007
Posts: 532
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Posted on Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:09 am
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Elemental Dragon: Ohhhh I like W.A.I.L. if wire-art/wire-work does get its own section could we call it that? Coif LoL


Maille Code V2.0 T5.4 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg$i C$p G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N16.16 Pt Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 Hc
Articles - Byzantine Speed Weaving - Poor Man's Tumbler - Ring Jig - Turk's Head Knot Ring - Wire Winding
Maille - Belt - Choker w. Padlock - Collar - Collar with Twist - Cuffs - Cuff 2 - Decorative Chains - DS Belt - Maille Cuffs - Micro Ring - T Shirt - Vambrace - Watch Band - Watch Chain
Non-maille - Ring - Ring Mk II

Joined: December 03, 2006
Posts: 588
Submissions: 15

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Posted on Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:17 am
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I think the perfect thing to do would be to make a "non-maille" category in articles and the gallery. sure it isn't maille, but wire work and maille is virtually the same thing if you want to look at it that way. plus, the whole point of this site is to encourage creativity and spread knowledge of maille, wouldn't it just be an added bonus to through in some other stuff on the side (as long as maille was the main thing)?

just my opinion

Joined: April 15, 2002
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Posted on Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:37 am
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As I said in the admin thread, I think if we do anything, we should do it well.

It seems counter-intuitive to me to say "It's okay, as long as it doesn't get too big, and I don't think it will", which is what most people seem to be saying. With the growth of the knowledgebase in mind, and the goal of making everything better, I would see a lackluster Wire Art section as something needing work or improvement, and would embrace that area growing and developing as much as possible.

It seems to me that "Okay as long as it stay small" is like saying "We know it doesn't belong here, but we're too cowardly to say so." I mean, I agree with it, it is fine to me as long as it stays small, I'm just not sure that's a good solution and I feel a little weak trying to back the "as long as" because I can't come up with a consistent way of handling it. What happens if it does catch on? Then suddenly we have to say "Wooh, time to pull the plug and get rid of it all, MAIL isn't supposed to be about that." or, what, then trim most of it? Under what criteria? People are already saying "Well, we already allow this other non-maille thing, why not then wire art?", so, maybe those earlier things should've had this conversation too and nipped that in the bud then. It's a bit of a slippery slope.

It's a funny situation.

1 - We all agree it's not maille.
2 - We all agree it doesn't "really" belong here.
3 - We all agree it's related to maille.
4 - We all agree it's interesting to read.
5 - We all agree it's not that big a deal to be here, in small amounts.

6 - We can't all agree on what to do about it. :p

I feel much less opposed to it if put it in a "Non-maille" category, rather than a named category like "Wire Art". I'm much more comfortable with lumping primers of all the semi-related but non-maille arts into the non-maille section.

I do like articles to have maille at their core. I have no problem with articles like "Stitching leather to maille", or "Using wire art with chainmaille." That's a rule we can stick to consistently, we also use it as the bounds for the trading room items.

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Posted on Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:46 pm
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One of the reasons I'd like to see this information posted on M.A.I.L. is that you can't find it for free anywhere else (to my knowledge). In that case, I'm proud to have this site give it a home.

The criterion so far for the articles has always been somewhat maille-related. At least with leatherworking, I can rationalize that somebody might want to incorporate maille with leather, and thus the information is useful. In the case of loop-in-loop, it does deal with metal rings, so, although a stretch, at least uses the same structural element (wire rings, not just wire).

That's also why we have articles on anodizing and such. They can be used by maillers. Even wire wrapping gems/beads (just okayed an article on that) get used by maillers for jewelry.

It's definitely a thin line sometime. And this time, having made those turks head rings myself... I finally lost the connection to regular maille.

In any case, given all that, and what everybody's been saying, we seem to be veering toward a 'non-maille' section that we can provide for our community and other people (hey, if we're the only source for some of this information, it can draw other people in to mailling, right? Smile okay, silver linings abound). My guess is it will stay small by its own nature, because most everybody here *does* focus on maille.

But keep the discussion rolling, please!


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.--Bertrand Russell

Maille Code V2.0 T6.4 R5.4 E=o.o Fj6.2 MAl.a W$m C$b G0.5-2.6 I1.6-9.5 N20.26 Pn Dacjs Xa25g13w5 S00 CCu

Joined: July 23, 2007
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Posted on Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:26 pm
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It's quite a difficult situation, if we add the non-maille section, it could be a slippery slope to eventually leaving maille but it'd be nice to have some diverse things like the turks head rings. When I saw his posts in the forums here I was excited and began hunting materials to make one of my own. I think that's one of the main goals of this site, to show people how to make such great things and get them eager to go and do it on their own, obviously geared towards maille though.

I'm glad I'm not an admin to make this decision Coif Smiley


He who strike's first, strikes twice

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Posted on Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:20 pm
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So far the two things most people seem to agree on is that non-maille but of interest articles should be approved, and that maille should remain the main focus of this site ... how about a quota system, for each non-maille article you would like to submit for approval you should also submit 1 or more new maille related articles Smile (or have someone else submit maille related articles on you behalf)

Upside is the maille section could not be out-grown by non-maille, downside is if maille related articles are compulsory we might see a drop in their quality. I'd also suggest using an honor system for this to reduce the increase in workload for admins.

it might be also handy to classify articles as maille / general / non-maille

general being for articles such as anodising, which is applicable to mailling but not exclusive to, and non-mailling is for articles that have no direct relevance to mailling.


Maille Code V2.0 T5.4 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg$i C$p G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N16.16 Pt Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 Hc
Articles - Byzantine Speed Weaving - Poor Man's Tumbler - Ring Jig - Turk's Head Knot Ring - Wire Winding
Maille - Belt - Choker w. Padlock - Collar - Collar with Twist - Cuffs - Cuff 2 - Decorative Chains - DS Belt - Maille Cuffs - Micro Ring - T Shirt - Vambrace - Watch Band - Watch Chain
Non-maille - Ring - Ring Mk II

Joined: August 14, 2006
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Posted on Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:20 pm
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Drax wrote:
The criterion so far for the articles has always been somewhat maille-related. At least with leatherworking, I can rationalize that somebody might want to incorporate maille with leather, and thus the information is useful. In the case of loop-in-loop, it does deal with metal rings, so, although a stretch, at least uses the same structural element (wire rings, not just wire).


Is a Turk's Head ring not a wire ring, itself? Smile

Drax wrote:

That's also why we have articles on anodizing and such. They can be used by maillers. Even wire wrapping gems/beads (just okayed an article on that) get used by maillers for jewelry.


Personally, I'd think there would be at least one enterprising or adventurous soul who would be willing to adapt Turk's Head rings into some form of maille, either as a focal point (like a bead or a pendant), or as a complete (time intensive) project on it's own. Small Turk's Heads as Byzantine connectors, anyone?


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

Joined: October 27, 2006
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Posted on Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:50 am
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Quote:
Personally, I'd think there would be at least one enterprising or adventurous soul who would be willing to adapt Turk's Head rings into some form of maille, either as a focal point (like a bead or a pendant), or as a complete (time intensive) project on it's own. Small Turk's Heads as Byzantine connectors, anyone?


And to think that I was actually thinking about finding a way to implement it...

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Posted on Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:27 am
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I'm very familiar with Loren's work, but it's still a stretch. He uses a completely different jig to make those "rings." The rest is semantics on the word "ring." I could write an article on "loopholes" and submit it because sounds ring-like, and it would be terribly ironic.

All that squirming around the rules aside, I don't know if we'd have to have an official quota, but just something to keep a watchful eye on. I would imagine, for example, a sudden influx of non-maille-related stuff initially, but that it would pretty much taper out.

Come to think of it, one of the bigger impacts would be on the gallery.... i don't recall exactly off-hand, but items must be maille-related to be submitted to the gallery, right?


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.--Bertrand Russell

Maille Code V2.0 T6.4 R5.4 E=o.o Fj6.2 MAl.a W$m C$b G0.5-2.6 I1.6-9.5 N20.26 Pn Dacjs Xa25g13w5 S00 CCu

Joined: August 14, 2006
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Location: McPherson, Kansas

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Posted on Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:45 am
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Yeah, I know I'm being rather ornery with the term "ring". Smile I apologize for any difficulties.

I guess what my opinion can be summarized as is that having an article for the Turk's Heads is about as useful as leather, or display, or bead wrapping articles because who knows what use some mailler might get out of it.


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

Joined: June 17, 2007
Posts: 532
Submissions: 21

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Posted on Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:41 am
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Quote:
Come to think of it, one of the bigger impacts would be on the gallery.... i don't recall exactly off-hand, but items must be maille-related to be submitted to the gallery, right?


I have not posted pics of my Turk's Head Knot Rings in the gallery because I don't feel people would want to see the pics of non-mail stuff in the gallery, but there has been a definite interest in the articles, which is why I started submitting them, initially I was hesitant, as it is not maille, but the positive response I've received indicated that this was information that other members of M.A.I.L. were interested in.

It brings up the question, if non-maille articles are allowed, what should be done as far as pictures of non-maille items?

As has been pointed out by others this whole thing could wind up being a slippery slope.


Maille Code V2.0 T5.4 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg$i C$p G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N16.16 Pt Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 Hc
Articles - Byzantine Speed Weaving - Poor Man's Tumbler - Ring Jig - Turk's Head Knot Ring - Wire Winding
Maille - Belt - Choker w. Padlock - Collar - Collar with Twist - Cuffs - Cuff 2 - Decorative Chains - DS Belt - Maille Cuffs - Micro Ring - T Shirt - Vambrace - Watch Band - Watch Chain
Non-maille - Ring - Ring Mk II

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