Weave 'forms'
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Weave 'forms'
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Posted on Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:56 pm
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For personal use, I am categorizing weaves not just by family, but also by 'form' in my database (which is in the works)...

Weave form basically refers to what shape the weave takes.

But I can't think of a name to describe one type of weave.

So far I've got 'sheet' weaves being weaves that expand on two planes, such as European 4 in 1, Voodoo, etc. 'Chain' weaves are those which expand on one plain thus forming a chain, such as Byzantine, Half Persian, etc. A 'Unit' is a weave that is made up as one unit, which can (in some cases, but not always) be expanded into a sheet or chain, or just left as is, examples including Mobius Ball, BrianStar (?), Cuboctahedron Atomic Bomb, Japanese 5 in 3 Base Unit, etc.

But I don't know what to name the other type of weave. They are weaves that can be expanded on three planes, indefinitely. Such things that go into this category include Byzantine Web Square Cube, Birdcage Persian Web Square Cube, Japanese 4 in 1 Cube, Denser Byzantine Cube, etc. I know the obvious name would be 'cube' weave, but I have a problem with that. All the weaves I just listed form a cube, but what if a weave is discovered that can be expanded on all three planes that doesn't have six sides? I don't know of any yet, but I'm sure with great advances in chainmail technology being done by sculpturers like Rescyou, only time shall tell.

So basically I just want to know what a good name for a weave of this form would be.. Interested in your input.


There is no such thing as weave ownership. If someone produces a weave sample, they own that physical piece of mail, but not rights to the weave pattern itself.
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Posted on Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:34 pm
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First, my answer to your question. Polyhedron or polyhedral would be my suggestion. You can skip the rest of this if that's all you wanted to know Smile

Now, to air a few thoughts of mine. I just started doing something yesterday similar to what it sounds like you are doing. I hadn't thought about the 'unit' or the 'polyhedral' designations, so thank you for bringing those to my awareness Smile. While I consider the byzantine webs and such to be constructs more than actual weaves, apparently there are many who have a differing opinion. To me, if the byzantine webs are weaves, then we might as well call this candleholder construct a weave, as well. If sombody can explain why there is a difference, I would be glad to hear it.

Somewhere along the lines somebody used the term 'basic unit' (either that, or I'm imagining that somebody used it Smile). Not a term that was in the glossary, but one I am finding useful. In my perception, a basic unit is the smallest segment or patch of weave in which the weave's pattern is apparent. For example, a fivelet is a BU of European 4-in-1. Now, with that in mind, here's how I would define weave forms, some of them being revised on the fly from what I jotted down yesterday, and with 'unit' and 'polyhedron' being added today:
unit - A weave form in which a BU typically stands on it's own. (mobius ball©, tetra orb)
chain/cable - A weave form in which the BU is repeated along one axis (length) producing a construct in which the two other axes (width, height) are of equal or very nearly so dimensions. Cable is just a large diameter chain. (2-in-1 chain, box, round, byzantine)
strip/strap - A weave form in which the BU is repeated along one axis (length) producing a construct in which the width is substantially more than the height. Generally, a weave that can be made as a strip can also be made as a sheet, and vice versa. (Bastardized, Millipede)
sheet - A weave form in which the BU is repeated along 2 axes producing a construct that is flat (low height) in relation to it's length and width. Generally, a weave that can be made as a sheet can also be made a strip, and vice versa. (European 4-in-1)
web - A weave form in which the BU is repeated in such a way as to create a sheet or strip with large, geometric openings spaced evenly in it. (Byzantine Web, Byzantine Web Square)
polyhedral - A weave form in which the BU is repeated in such a way as to create a construct that has substantial measurements on all 3 axes. (Byzantine Web Square Cube)

So, my definitions may be faulty in one way or another, but I would like to see some discussion on this subject.

There is a difference between 'weave' and 'weave form'. As I mentioned above, I think the byzantine webs and cubes are constructs and should be in the gallery, not in the weaves database. They are weave forms of the byzantine BU, not weaves in and of themselves. Sorry about picking on the byzantine constructs, but they are the ones that most immediately come to mind. IMO, there are other construcst that have no business being in the weaves database but should be in the gallery, instead.

My $0.02.


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"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

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Posted on Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:05 pm
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See now your talking lad, I do this with my listings as well. I use the same "forms" as you do but for the 3d plane weave i simply call them "Dimentional" weaves because they expand on all three planes x,y, and z.


maille Code V2.0 T8.3 R6.4 Ep.f Fper Mfe.s Wsg$ Cpw$ G0.25-2.5 I0.5-30 N31.31 Pa Dacdjw Xa27g37w1 S94

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Posted on Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:26 pm
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I like the name Polyhedral weaves. Graymalkin's 3d weaves, babel and ziggrat, don't have cubic structure, they have some other kind. Names used for crystal structure classification could be used for maille. I am currently developing a tetragonal(?) weave.


Dart


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Posted on Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:39 am
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Yeah, I think it would be like crystal structure. Currently all I'm sorting by is dimension.

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Posted on Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:32 am
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On the note of naming... Why not just keep it simple, and call them what they are? They're three dimensional weaves. 3D is descriptive, and it doesn't makes potentially false associations. It is quite possible that someone can/will create a three dimensional weave, and have it be nowhere near polyhedral territory. Future proofing, ftw. Wink

I've been thinking long and hard on the best way of clarifying how weaves are defined. I've been striving to find a solution with a system that is mathmatically and scientifically sound, and mostly future proofed. I have been trying to map it all out in a big web (and not give myself a stroke in the process). There are lots of places where the lines get very blurry when trying to conceive this Grand Map of Weaves of mine. Which weaves are parent/child/brother/cousin/former roommate to which? On some hybrid weaves, when does one family's influence stop and another's begin? What about the weaves that can factually exist in multiple places on the Map depending on how you perceive the disposition of the rings? The list goes on...

What I've come up with is this: Theory + Modifier(s) = Application. Theory is the fundamental core of the weave, how the rings relate to each other. Modifiers are common building blocks that can be separated from a theory. Application is the end result of the theory and modifier(s) being combined, and where Named weaves will land. Forms/constructs (as described by Elemental Dragon) will not have a place on the Map; I agree with his position that such items are not weaves by themselves.

-----

Example:

Basic European is the theory. Simple math modifiers yield e4-1, e6-1, e8-1, and off into infinity if you really want to (IMO building anything past e8-1 is pointless for obvious reasons).

Upon any of those, you can add a variety of modifiers...

Doubled rings of same size (King's prefix for e4-1, Emperor's prefix for e6-1)
Doubled rings of nesting sizes (Scale suffix)
Built into cylindrical shape + math + axis (box, roundmaille, inverted round)
Single ring replaced with low ring mobius (flower or rosette affix)
Multiple ring sizes (snakeskin, millipede)

Some modifiers may require other modifiers as prereqs, such as "cylindrical(inverted round)" being required for "capture X rings in a segment".

-----

The example list is only meant to be representative of the concept, and probably isn't even the tip of the iceberg. This idea has barely been hatched, and there's still a lot of blank space to be filled in.

Thoughts, questions?


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Posted on Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:52 pm
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Technically, all weaves are 3 dimensional Smile

I did think that 'three dimensional' might be a feasible option, but had the above thought. Even a sheet of plain European 4-in-1 has thickness. However, with the definition I used, or one similar, I think 'three dimensional' would work.

I am in serious agreement and/or support of some drastic weave database reclassification/restructuring criteria. It sounds like your suggestion, while it may need some work (it sounds good to me, but I'm not the expert here Smile), looks to have some thought behind it.

Another thought to throw out there. I've come across at least a couple of pairs of weaves that are the exact same construction, but have differing number of orbital/captive/whatever rings and are listed as two different weaves.

Reinforced Inverted Round and Bore Worm - They appear to be the same construction method. However, I would consider them both to be Reinforced Inverted Round (I prefer the descriptive names to the fanciful names, personally) sub-family, with the number of rings possibly being a named variant (i.e. one captive reinforced ring = Bore Worm RIR, two captive reinforced rings = [insert name here], etc.).

Rhinos Snorting Drano and Barrel Weave (which only has a tutorial and not a database entry) - They are both basically just a European 4-in-1 chain (length taken across the grain rather than with the grain) with a number of AE rings added to each pair. With the appropriate AR, they both could be made into sheets (couldn't quite sheet RSD, let alone Barrel, with TRL's GA1414, but have some rings on order that I think will work for at least the RSD). And I would call the whole sub-family of E4-1 with AE rings around each pair either Augmented (preferred) or Reinforced European 4-in-1, with Barrel Weave and RSD being the names for the 2 and 1 AE ring variants, respectively. And although both Barrel Weave and RSD came before this concept, I think it would be a valid classification. (If somebody gets around to submitting AE4-1 before I do, that's fine Smile)

From the M.A.I.L. glossary (yet another thing in need of restructuring/something, IMO):
weave - A weave is the immediate pattern noticed in a piece of maille of one weave. It is the repeating pattern, and the pattern in which the rings are added, and the characteristics of how they interact with other rings in the weave.

That definition, however, leaves a lot of leeway in what constitutes a new weave and pretty much allows all the confusion that is present in the classification system today.

My $0.02, and again, I'm not a maille expert Smile


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

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Posted on Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:15 pm
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Well then Aristabulus, sounds like you want to assist me in this. If you weren't aware already, I've already figured out a solid set of definitions (down to mathematical specificity) regarding the different "families", or types of ring interactions. There are still a few kinks regarding the weird weaves, but I think it's all workable from here. That web you refer to is something I started doing a long time ago, but soon realized how near impossible it is. Something like this...

ALL WEAVE RELATIONS WEB (AHHH!!!!!)

Weaves:
Euro 4-1
Variants: Modification:
Sheets:
Snakeskin Alternate two ring sizes between grain rows
Euro 3-1
Euro 5-1 Each links with 3 below, 2 above
Euro 5-1 Each links with 3 and 2, alternating sides
Euro 6-1 Link each ring through 6 others
Euro 7-1 Each links with 4 below and 3 above
Euro 8-1 Link each ring through 8 others
Gridlock Row angles waved instead of stairstepped
Cobra / Hinge Grain rows linked at alternating angles
Intertwined E4-1 Grain rows linked not alternating angles
King's Maille Double all the rings
King's Scale Two ring sizes, one fitting inside another
Poor King's Scale
Royal Scale
Princemaille
Double Maille
Triple Maille
Dwarf Maille
Alienmaille
Euro 4-1 Thrice
I 4-1
Elfweave
Centipede
Magus Weave
Strangemaille
Persian 3-1 Sheet 6 Anti-grain rows compress, stack to form eyes, and each ring is inserted into neighboring eye.

Chains:
2-1 (Euro Ribbon) Three rows of Euro 4-1
Boxchain Rolled with the grain, 4 rows
Windmill Rolled against the grain, 4 rows
Roundmaille Rolled with the grain, 6 rows
Inverted Round Rolled against the grain, 6 rows
Spiral Round
Snakeskin
Variants:
Sheets:
Dragonscale Two snakeskin sheets interwoven
Millipede Sheet
Chains:
Scale Round
Boxchain
Variants:
Sheets:
Euro 4-1 Unroll and extend
Boxmail Linked Box chains
Ribbed Box Sheet
Chains:
Byzantine Box units connected with one or two rings
Roundmaille 6 rows instead of 4
Box of Scales Scale each side of the box
Flat box Two ring sizes
Offset box One row slid one ring forward
Gridbox
Sand Worm
Folding Box
Lobster Tail
Lady of the House
Full Persian
Roundmaille
Variants:
Sheets:
Euro 4-1
Chains:
Flat Round
Inverted Round
Fluctuating Gridbox Round
Inverted Round
Variants:
Sheets:
Euro 4-1
Chains:
Roundmaille
Byzantine
Variants:
Sheets:
Byzantine Sheet
Bastardized Weave
True Byzantine Sheet
Byzantine Web
Byzantine Web Square
Byzantine Web Cube
Chains:
Birdcage Variant 1
Birdcage Variant 2
Byzantine (Double Boxed)
King Byzantine
Trizantine
Turkish Round
Flowers in Cages
Half Byzantine Plus One
Byzantine Variant
Byzee Bees
Byzee Bees to Butterflys
Kudzu
Byzee Bees
variants:
Sheets:
Chains:
Byzee Bees to Butterflys
Byzantine
Byzee Bees to Butterflys
Variants:
Sheets:
Possible but not existant (NOT byzantine sheet)
Chains:
Byzantine
Beez Stew
Gridlock Byzantine
DragonScale
Variants:
Sheets:
Snakeskin
Wyrmscale
King's Dragonscale
Standing Scale
Tiamat Scale
Dragon Roses
Kith's Pet Dragon
Chains:
Helm Chain
Dragon's Tail
Shenanigans
Roundscale
Helm Chain
Variants:
Sheets:
Dragonscale
Conundrum
Conundrum 2
Chains:
Parallel Flowers
Rondo
Gridlock
Variants:
Sheets:
Euro 4-1
Dragonlock
Double Gridlock
Gracelock et al
Gridlock Byzantine Sheet
Gridiron
Wave Lock
Wavemaille
Staggered Corduroy Grid
Chains:
Groovy
Mizu
Inverse Box
Gridlock Byzantine
Trizantine
Variants:
Sheets:
Chains:
Trees
X Trizantine
Turkish Round
Variants:
Sheets:
Turkish Sheet
Chains:
Spaced Turkish Round
Facing Turkish Round
Gridbox Round
Elfsheet
Variants:
Sheets:
wood Elf
Tiffany
Interwoven 4-1 Sheet
Elfsheet Round
Chains:
Elfweave
Interwoven 4-1
Variants:
Sheets:
I4-1 Sheet
Chains:
Elfweave
Centipede
Centipede
Variants:
Sheets:
Euro 4-1
Chains:
I4-1 Sheet



As you can see this is nothing yet. I didn't even get that far. As far as your modifiers thing, that's basically how the new system will be set up. The base weaves will have their own pages, but in searching, there are "subfamilies", which are simple chunks of weaves that aren't necessarily unique or indivisible, but are so common that there's a whole branch of weaves shooting off from them, like byzantine or helm chain (both of which are subs of european, if in an unmodified form). The other things like king, scale, etc. are options that can be chosen on the search page.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/cschwar4/www/Weaves.htm

This is the basic idea for the new weaves frontpage, but it's not done, a lot of things will be altered, like available subfamilies and checkboxes.

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Posted on Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:08 am
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Well, I got what I needed from that. Thanks. I'll go with three dimensional.

Btw, anything after European 8 in 1 is certainly not pointless. In fact, I've begun development of a European 10 in 1-sided basket.


There is no such thing as weave ownership. If someone produces a weave sample, they own that physical piece of mail, but not rights to the weave pattern itself.
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Posted on Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:29 am
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Heh. We did kinda hijack your thread, didn't we. Smile

Sorry about that, although I think it is something that needs discussed.


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

Joined: March 26, 2002
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Posted on Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:01 pm
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No, that's totally cool. I love how threads can take off like this and be full of relevant conversation on the topic. I definitely agree that this stuff needs to be talked about. I just wish I had more to contribute.


There is no such thing as weave ownership. If someone produces a weave sample, they own that physical piece of mail, but not rights to the weave pattern itself.
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Posted on Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:04 am
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Dave -

http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=6192 <-- More than you want to read.

Page 2 I think gets into the "what do you call these" debate a bit.

There's simply, 1D, 2D, and 3D.

There's Chain, Sheet, Block/Box/3D

And so on. Also of note, in that thread I commented that wrapping a 2D pattern into a tube, though 3D, does not make it a 3D weave. 3D means the pattern as defined, expands in 3 directions, not that the pattern exists in 3 dimentions (though even a tube can only expand in 1 dimention, length, the other two dimentions are constrained upon creation).

I'll also toss in my 2 cents that I consider many weaves we've recognised, not to be weaves, but "mini-projects" that seem to be repeatable patterns. In that respect, I may be in a boat with Elemental Dragon here, in that, many "3D" weaves aren't 3d. Though, perhaps, 3D is of sufficient complexity that there aren't any "true" 3D weaves at all.

Tess has done a truckload of work in this respect already, I'd get his username on whatever IM client he uses and chat him up. The chemistry of your two minds together will surely create some new and interesting revelations about chainmaille. Kidnap Kim and force him to participate if you can.

Also, no, this will not be for your personal use. You're not allowed. Whatever you create out of this project you are most definately required to be sharing with the rest of us Smile

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Posted on Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:44 pm
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Cynake wrote:

Also, no, this will not be for your personal use. You're not allowed. Whatever you create out of this project you are most definately required to be sharing with the rest of us Smile


Anything I create that will be of any use to the chainmail movement will be shared with M.A.I.L., as I have always done since the very beginning. I don't think my database design will be of much use though, as I think the one here will be more intuitive than mine, but any data I come up with that could go in there will be shared. I'll also be getting better quality images of some of the weaves too in the future.. I have a bit of catching up to do first though, and will be pretty busy for the next while.


There is no such thing as weave ownership. If someone produces a weave sample, they own that physical piece of mail, but not rights to the weave pattern itself.
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Posted on Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:57 am
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I've always called weaves that can go multidimensional, "structural weaves" which are basically weaves that hold their shape despite position or placement. Captive invert round and Cap Orb Hex for instance hold their shape however you place them where a sheet of e4-1 makes a blob if you randomy place it.

Ps. These suckers expand in 12 directions and make exellent funky sheets and structures:

http://www.mailleartisans.org/gallery/subcat.cgi?key=23946


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Posted on Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:07 pm
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See I can never make things like that because they tend to explode when I'm trying to lock the orbitals in and I can never reset. Anyway my primary concern isn't really the dimension of the weave but how the rings interact. Things that use orbitals like that are quite a curiosity, they'll have to be geometrically described rather than with maille terms.

One of my expectations for the new system is that the "mini-projects" category of weaves will be weeded out, and either removed, gallerized, or listed as a variant of a real weave.

If you need it:

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