Captive Ring/Orbital Ring definition inconsistency
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Captive Ring/Orbital Ring definition inconsistency
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Posted on Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:34 am
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CAPTIVE RING
A ring that is held in place by a series of rings without passing through the inner diameter of those rings. The rings holding a captive ring in place are known as its cage.

ORBITAL RING
A ring which is connected around either the space where two or more other rings connect or around one or more entire rings, while never passing through the inner plane of any ring.

Why was it decided that captive rings are allowed to connect to other rings present in a weave, as long as they don’t pass through any cage rings, but orbital rings aren’t allowed to pass through ANY rings in the weave, not just those around which they orbit?

Does anyone else wonder about this?


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Posted on Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:26 am
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One thing come to mind when spending 2 minutes thinking about the wording:
Where an orbital ring can connect to other rings is if the orbital connection utilizes a mobius. This flaws the definition on a technicality. However, once that ring links up with something else... is it still an orbital ring at that point?
Is there a distinction for orbital rings and orbital connections? (I think there is...)

Captive Zen is an interesting weave to try and clarify this "orbital" criteria. While there are technically no orbital rings, the structure is sure does lend itself to appear to have both orbital and captive rings. The captive connections that I see is a j2-1s4 captive inside a doubled 2in1 chain. To maintain the captive structure, portions of the doubled 2in1 chain orbit (+ cage) the j2-1s4 rings (but are not true orbital rings because they are still part of the doubled 2in1 chain).

Without these restrictions, weaves like Dragonscale start to become a bit of a difficulty for maintaining consistent with terminology. It's a captive weave, is it not? There are a bunch that I'd consider "interwoven" that fall under this category where 2 or more individual weaves use captive and orbit connections to interlock while technically never actually passing through the ID of each. Most that fall under this "interwoven" criteria have unlabeled technical "captive" rings with that plurality in the definition.

---

Anyways, it seems like the existing labels in the library for captive support removing the plurality in the definition.
Interwoven might be a useful new term to define and clear up existing oddities in captive and orbital connection mentions in a handful of weave descriptions.


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Posted on Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:01 am
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i agree with chainmailbasket. and i think more terms should be used for these other situations that are orbit-like and captive-like.



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Posted on Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:14 pm
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One thing I will add is that orbital rings have a significantly broader scope. There are only so many weaves with a cage structure of any sort, be it a standard cage as those found in Inverted Round, Box Chain 4 in 1, etc, or the less unelusive ones involving sandwiching technique, like in Japanese Dragonscale. Orbital rings can be applied to many weaves.

I could see the reason for limiting the definition of orbital rings too keep the number of valid weave associations to a reasonable level, although I don’t think that this is a valid justification. I am very doubtful that this is why it was imposed in the first place.

It’s interesting, TCG, that you ask of Dragonscale having captive rings, when it’s been debated at least a few times in the past as to whether or not the large rings are orbitals. I consider this an orbital weave sort of. I never even thought of or considered it to contain captives.

This reminds me of something I reread recently from an older thread regarding Helm Chain:

[quote:f6a1705c93="Talia"]
It still leaves Helm technically neither, as the ring in question is held in place by the intersection of a group of rings within its plane (ie, it is only captive by means of its orbit, and only orbital due to its captivity), leaving it completely outside these definitions, though I've often seen it called an "Orbital/Captive" weave.


From http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=13278


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Posted on Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:36 pm
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Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
It’s interesting, TCG, that you ask of Dragonscale having captive rings, when it’s been debated at least a few times in the past as to whether or not the large rings are orbitals. I consider this an orbital weave sort of. I never even thought of or considered it to contain captives.


For clarity, I should note that Talia's quote is referring to Tesserex's definitions, not the glossary definition.
Let's use Wyvern Scale as the example.

Using the glossary definitions:
The extra large rings are orbital. They completely surround one ring (a valid criteria), but never actually passes through the central plane of any ring.
These extra large rings are also captive, because they are held in place by the other 4 rings of the fivelet (the rings caging it).
Interestingly, converting wyvern scale to dragonscale revokes the orbital criteria, but not the captive criteria.

Using Tesserex's definitions Definitions of Weave Terms:
The extra large rings are NOT orbital, as it is not being held in place by the intersection of 2 rings.
The extra large rings are captive, as it does not intersect the 4 rings of the fivelet that cage it. (note: Tesserex doesn't explicitly define "intersect" or "plane", so I've made assumptions based on other definition uses.)

For completeness, let's also include Musicman's Weave Theory - Discussion; Terminology...
For brevity, they match the glossary criteria... but also include Helm Chain as an example for captive rings explicitly.
Even more amusingly, the image provided for both the captive and orbital definitions use the exact same 7 rings.

As for my personal definitions used, I think the terms "orbital" and "captive" are connection/interaction types which sometimes refer to singular rings (akin to Musicman's article terminology). I'm also still trying to understand Tesserex's definition for "sandwich", because I'm quite sure it matches the modern usage (as noted by Musicman's article). It's rather clear that these definitions fall into a grey area. If you haven't noticed already, I tend to redefine my definitions based on the borderline weaves. Messenger was actually one of the clarifying weaves for the current definition that I use for captive.


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Re: Captive Ring/Orbital Ring definition inconsistency
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Posted on Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:28 pm
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Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
CAPTIVE RING
A ring that is held in place by a series of rings without passing through the inner diameter of those rings. The rings holding a captive ring in place are known as its cage.

ORBITAL RING
A ring which is connected around either the space where two or more other rings connect or around one or more entire rings, while never passing through the inner plane of any ring.

Why was it decided that captive rings are allowed to connect to other rings present in a weave, as long as they don’t pass through any cage rings, but orbital rings aren’t allowed to pass through ANY rings in the weave, not just those around which they orbit?

Does anyone else wonder about this?


I've often wondered about that. It's why a lot of 'captive'-like weaves never got tagged as captive. We also have a group of captive/orbital style weaves that involve whole chains instead of individual rings (such as Enthrall. I've been wanting to tag those as 'symbiont' as they're two (or more) co-existing chains and not just the single rings typically defined as 'captive' or orbital.'


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Re: Captive Ring/Orbital Ring definition inconsistency
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Posted on Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:20 pm
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Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
CAPTIVE RING
A ring that is held in place by a series of rings without passing through the inner diameter of those rings. The rings holding a captive ring in place are known as its cage.

ORBITAL RING
A ring which is connected around either the space where two or more other rings connect or around one or more entire rings, while never passing through the inner plane of any ring.

Why was it decided that captive rings are allowed to connect to other rings present in a weave, as long as they don’t pass through any cage rings, but orbital rings aren’t allowed to pass through ANY rings in the weave, not just those around which they orbit?

Does anyone else wonder about this?


I understand and welcome discussion. When I wrote the article using those definitions we had a good deal of discussion on everything and this is what the group came up with.

Do we want to change the definition? How would you change the definition?

If we come to a consensus I will gladly change the definition in my article.


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Posted on Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:41 pm
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It’s looking like we’ll need at least separate definitions for orbital ring, and orbital connection. Any wordsmiths among us want to hash this thing out?


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Posted on Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:35 pm
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Orbital Ring:

A ring which encircles either the space where two or more other rings connect or around one or more entire rings or basic units, while never passing through the inner plane of any ring they surround.

Extended to include basic unit orbiting.


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Posted on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:50 pm
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Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
It’s looking like we’ll need at least separate definitions for orbital ring, and orbital connection. Any wordsmiths among us want to hash this thing out?


Here is where my lack on knowledge come in to play. What is an orbital connection ? Are you referring to what Narrina was pointing out? If it was a connection how could it truly be an orbital. I have always thought of an orbital as sort of a "free floating" ring that is held in place by the diameter of the rings around it. How can it than be a connection?

The only difference I have ever thought of between Captive and Orbital is that Captive is held between rings like CIR or sandwiched between rings like Helm where Orbitals are held in place by the diameter of the rings around it likeorbital.

Please enlighten.


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Posted on Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:51 pm
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I definitly like your definition, mm, which is Why I see CIRSS as captive, but not orbital. While the ”orbital” rings interact as orbitals, they are dependant on the IR connections.

The captive part is still captured, even though it makes a connections that penetrate it’s captors.


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Posted on Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:17 am
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My definitions, put to words...

Orbital Ring: A ring whose sole structural interaction is an orbital connection.

Orbital Connection: An interaction where satellite ring(s) are held in place by planet ring(s) that they pass around while never passing through.

Captive Ring: A ring whose sole structural interaction is a captive connection.

Captive Connection: An interaction where captive ring(s) are held in place by cage ring(s) that they neither pass around nor through.

Sandwich Ring: A ring whose structural interactions involve both an orbital connection as well as one or more captive connections.

Here, I define "held in place" as "restricting motion in at least one axis of translation". One ring "passes around" another when the second ring's WD exists inside the first ring's ID. One ring "passes through" another when the first ring's WD exists inside the second ring's ID. While not used here, one ring "is connected to" another when they both pass through (and around) each other.


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Posted on Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:21 pm
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TCG I like your definitions, the only thing I worry about is there are to many definitions for the definitions. If that makes sense. Sad

Is there some way we could combine things to make a longer, but more concise definition?


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Posted on Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:58 pm
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TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
My definitions, put to words...

Orbital Ring: A ring whose sole structural interaction is an orbital connection.

Orbital Connection: An interaction where satellite ring(s) are held in place by planet ring(s) that they pass around while never passing through.

Captive Ring: A ring whose sole structural interaction is a captive connection.

Captive Connection: An interaction where captive ring(s) are held in place by cage ring(s) that they neither pass around nor through.

Sandwich Ring: A ring whose structural interactions involve both an orbital connection as well as one or more captive connections.

Here, I define "held in place" as "restricting motion in at least one axis of translation". One ring "passes around" another when the second ring's WD exists inside the first ring's ID. One ring "passes through" another when the first ring's WD exists inside the second ring's ID. While not used here, one ring "is connected to" another when they both pass through (and around) each other.


How about something like:
Orbital Ring: A ring whose sole structural interaction is held in place by planet ring(s) which the orbital ring passes around while never passing through.
Example:Orbital

Captive Ring: A ring whose sole structural interaction is held in place by either cage ring(s), that the captive ring neither pass around nor through, or sandwich rings, which involve both an orbital interaction as well as one or more captive interactions.
Example of Cage:Captive Inverted Round
Example of Sandwich: Helm


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Posted on Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:27 pm
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MusicMan wrote:
TCG I like your definitions, the only thing I worry about is there are to many definitions for the definitions. If that makes sense. Sad

Is there some way we could combine things to make a longer, but more concise definition?


I included the extra definitions for added specificity, but I don't think they are necessary. The current definition of orbital ring uses the term "inner plane" -- a term that only comes up 8 times in a forum search and has not been defined in those threads.

MusicMan wrote:
How about something like:
Orbital Ring: A ring whose sole structural interaction is held in place by planet ring(s) which the orbital ring passes around while never passing through.
Example:Orbital

Captive Ring: A ring whose sole structural interaction is held in place by either cage ring(s), that the captive ring neither pass around nor through, or sandwich rings, which involve both an orbital interaction as well as one or more captive interactions.
Example of Cage:Captive Inverted Round
Example of Sandwich: Helm


I approve. That being said, I've seen others use the term "sandwich" to deal with parallel rings. Should definitely get more weave theory input before writing down my opinion for what it means in stone. Might even need a different discussion on it entirely... Maybe we could even try and reconcile "symbiont" (or what I call "interwoven captive"... which probably isn't a good term given the existing usage in weave descriptions).


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