Strongest Weave
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Joined: September 26, 2009
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Strongest Weave
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Posted on Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:36 am
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At work today I was in a meeting, and noticed something that never struck me before--all of the chains in construction (where they're used, which is rare) are simple two-in-one chains. Of course, now I have to know: What is the strongest chain?

I would test this myself, but I left all my maille stuff at home and am traveling at the moment. My idea is to make several different line-type weaves (Full Persian, half Persian, Byzantine, box, round, captive inverted round (once I can reliably make that stupid weave), etc.) with near the lowest AR recommended for the weave. Not the lowest possible, because I want some give to it, but close enough, as that'll somewhat standardize things. Then simply attach one end to a hook and the other to a platform where weights can be added (I'm thinking coins, for the uniformity). How many coins=how strong the weave is. Make them all out of the same metal, obviously.

The issue I can see is that some weaves require larger rings--try doing a Persian weave with rings sized for Byzantine and you quickly lock up the weave. This will lower the strength, because the weaves aren't as work-hardened (not as much strain). If I do the weaves at near the lowest AR for the weave, it should standardize this to some extent. I could also use the recommended AR, but there's going to be more variability here (and from what I've seen and read, the recommended is near the lowest AR anyway). Obviously I can't test all ARs, because theoretically it would be possible to make any of the weaves I mentioned with wire the size of a human hair, but an inner diameter equal to the orbit of the Earth (it'd just be really, really, really floppy).

Just going by the ring connections, I'd say the standard chain would be the weakest, followed by a half Persian and byzantine, followed by 3/4 Persian, followed by box, round, and full Persian. I think the Hoodoo chain would be at the top. Going by ARs, it'd be nearly the reverse (Hoodoo again would be among the strongest).

After the six years this'll take me, I'd want to start on the sheets, though this would be more difficult. Certainly more difficult to standardize, as some weaves lend themselves to thicker strips while some (the European X-in-1s come to mind) can be three links wide.

Joined: May 07, 2008
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Posted on Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:36 am
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Oh that is a complex topic, as much depends on the type of ring closing (butted, riveted, welded). Given that all identical for all samples to be tested, the weave dependent main parameter is the 'x-in-y' number of a given weave (redundancy, load sharing aspect), combined with the lowest workable AR (twist and pull resistance of rings) for that weave. So it COULD be, that the results might result in different weaves being the strongest ones depending on closing method, as some weaves are sensitive to rings being pulled open (mostly staight ring orientation), others to rings twisted open (angled rings). For sheet weave experimentation I would tend to work with tubes woven form the weave in question, except the edge behaviour was part of the testing. Finally, the results should be presented in a form similar to the 'denier number' used for yarns.

But anyway: That's a major project to have in mind. Good luck.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

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Posted on Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:33 pm
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Strongest weave is Shaggy Loops, full stop.

Coif Cool Smiley

-phong



-- CGMaille tutorials now hosted here at MAIL! --

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Posted on Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:39 pm
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Its good to see a sense of humor.

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Posted on Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:14 pm
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Well ZiLi already covered most of the real considerations. Razz

From a materials' standpoint, tensile strength is dependent on the strength of the individual bonds and the number of bonds per area orthogonal to the direction of tension. So use the strongest ring style in the strongest metal with the optimal balance between individual ring strength and rings per cross sectional area. Which probably means welded in AR 2 in a 2-1 chain. From an industrial standpoint, that also has the benefit of being very easy to produce.

For fancy weaves, you have to take a lot more into consideration. Ring angles; where the butted ends are; whether one ring failing is enough to fail the weave, or if the entire chain/sheet needs to come apart; etc. A hugely monumental effort if it's to be thorough, and really not all that useful to the everyday mailler.

Just the kind of projects I like. To see other people do. Razz

-phong



-- CGMaille tutorials now hosted here at MAIL! --

Joined: May 07, 2008
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Posted on Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:26 pm
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And that's why I like the Jens Pind family and some Half Persians - very strong, even if done with relatively soft material and butted links.

Just compare the 'x-in-y' number and the used AR...

@Phong: You surely chat too much - strongest and strangest are two different things Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy But we may discuss that in chat...

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 990
Submissions: 244

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Posted on Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:46 pm
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The strongest chain weave is a 2-1 chain, the strongest sheet weave is J4-1. Not only that but they are the only weaves that maintain full flexibility at near minimum AR's. You could test it empirically(and exhaustively) but there is no need to, it was calculated centuries ago. It's no coincidence that all the chains used in construction are 2-1. As a general rule the smaller the possible aspect ratio the stronger the weave regardless of welding, riveting etc.


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Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

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Posted on Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:28 pm
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I don't doubt that they're the strongest--I figured that if there was a better weave someone would have said something. I'm more interested in why, and what other factors come into play. Plus, it's something fun and interesting I may be able to write an article about sometime, and an excuse to learn a few new weaves. Besides, if I can demonstrate that a fancy weave will hold something I need held, it'd be a way to add visual interest to a home/lamp/whatever. But to demonstrate that, I need to have some numbers.

Besides, I'm in a hotel room roughly a continent away from friends and family. It's this or playing Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, and frankly this will be less expensive (I HATE orc wizards....).

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Posted on Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:29 pm
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In that case, may the force be with you.

If you want to go the math route a mechanical engineer could probably point you in the right direction, but you might still be stuck with empirical data for the fancy weaves.

As I recall this has been attempted a couple times before in the last decade so a few google searches might net you some numbers.


www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

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Posted on Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:06 am
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That.....that disturbs me. I know how insane this project is, and I'm mildly disturbed that I'm not the only one this nuts out there. Surprised I'll have a look later tonight, though.

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:12 pm
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Dinwar wrote:
That.....that disturbs me. I know how insane this project is, and I'm mildly disturbed that I'm not the only one this nuts out there.


man, you're on a maille forum talking to maillers.. just sayin'..

kim


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3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: March 11, 2010
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Posted on Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:14 pm
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The last post speaks more truth than I've heard all day.


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Posted on Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:41 pm
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lorenzo wrote:
The strongest chain weave is a 2-1 chain, the strongest sheet weave is J4-1.



Lorenzo - I am curious how they found J4-1 was the strongest sheet. If you have any data or reasoning behind it I would love to read through it. I only ask because I would have thought a more dense sheet would be stronger.

Thanks Smile


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

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Posted on Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:44 pm
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makes sense to me, smallest possible ARs.. excepting, perhaps, j3... but i doubt that would be stronger..

i, also, am interested in where this was learned.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 14, 2006
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Posted on Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:22 pm
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It possibly derives from the statement that 2-in-1 chain is the strongest, I would imagine. I've been known to be wrong before, though Smile


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"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

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