Historical Maille - Middle Ages
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Posted on Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:50 pm
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At which point they may as well make the back of the butchers' glove of plate, not mail.

Butchers' gloves are also built to fit either hand, to suit left- or right-handed meatcutters. One glove serves for either hand.


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Posted on Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:53 pm
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Yes, plate would be nice.

Most maille gloves are ambidextrous, but when you cut meat like beef ribs using a clever, it is better for you and your employer to have as much protection as possible.

Butchers here have their hand like 1 - 2 inches from the point they land the blow at. Crazy stuff. A butcher from by old neighborhood cut his arm once, but thankfully the doctors reattached it.
A glove made of heavy maille or plate would have prevented it, and he would end up with some broken or dislocated bones in the worst case.

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Posted on Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:16 am
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Butcher's gloves are engineered to be the ideal ring size for knife use, the good ones will stop stop anything from a cleaver to a fillet knife. You might still break your fingers with the cleaver but if the rings were any bigger then the tips of fillet knives and icepicks could poke between the rings.

I worked as a butcher for 4 years and never once got more than a scratch through the glove. Don't buy any gloves made in China or the USA though, those are all junk because of the lousy welds. Many knives will tear right through those.

I've also made specialized butcher's gloves with scale backing before, they're meant for working on meat cutting bandsaws. The teeth on the blade can catch rings and pull your whole arm into the saw otherwise. They aren't very common because they're very expensive and need to be custom sized.


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Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

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Posted on Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:37 pm
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Thanks for the information!

But USA making junk gloves?

Actually I am making my own glove for woodworking, which is 3,5mm ID 3,5 AR made with 1mm Galvy wire.

Just curious, can such small rings be resistance welded...? Rolling Eyes

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Posted on Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:39 am
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Yes, American made butcher's gloves are garbage, the good ones come from France and Germany. The American's technology is about 40 years behind, it would have been state-of-the-art in the 1970's.

You could definitely weld those rings, but you're using too small of an AR for armour again. The best AR for welded rings is ~6.5, smaller AR's are only noticeably stronger for butted rings. I'd be surprised if you can move your fingers in an AR 3.5 glove, even with perfect tailoring.


www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

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Posted on Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:27 pm
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It is not as flexible as a rubber glove. It is as much flexible as heavy winter glove.

My secondary hand usually holds something or balances myself, so I do not need much flexibility.

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Posted on Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:13 pm
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Does anyone have any examples of early Medieval mail? Perhaps something between the 13th Century and the Viking Age?

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Posted on Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:42 am
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Museums, maybe. There are fragmentary finds of earlier mail dating all the way back to the second century BC.

Not-so-fragmentary remnant mail tends to show a shelf life, in the race between corrosion and maintenance, of about six hundred years, give or take a hundred at the outside. The mail fabric itself has few really datable features, and you can't even rely completely on such features of plate harness to which the mail may be attached, or with which it is associated. For a famous example of the problem, see the red covered-breastplate armour in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, said to be of c.1400 date, assembled for exhibition by then-curator Bashford Dean. Start with the helmet: a 14th-century temple-hinged hundsgugel visor fitted onto a fifteenth-century great-bascinet skull, all set over a mail coif. Which has no historical nor design business being there. To get it right you need a 14th-c. regular bascinet skull and not the advanced model that succeeded it, which would be right with a rounded-nosed great-bascinet visor of some sort and barbe-plates in place of mail -- and that mail coif not there at all, but a camail substituted. Errors of detail and construction continue to be found all the way down to about the greaves -- some of these established by live experimentation, because that armour is a pretty one and an inspiration to plate-armor players. Once they fix the details, they actually do end up with a persuasive and very functional 1390's bascinet armour. One with differently done pieces of mail in it too.


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Posted on Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:08 am
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Shame.

But since we have Roman era mail available, at least in fragments, you'd think we would have 12th-ish century mail available in greater amounts. Perhaps the Romans just created larger amounts of it.

All I can think of is the Tofta coif.

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Posted on Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:37 pm
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Maybe the old armours would be smelted and the steel recycled because there was a shortage of materials.


Have a look here:
http://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/european-mail-armor/
There are some pieces from 14th Century and some form late 13th Century.

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Posted on Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:58 am
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Not even that so much -- mailpatches recycle easily into different mail items, and mail gets completely used up with long service, particularly from earlier into later times.

And the argument about using bits of mail for pot scrubbers is pretty good too. People have tested this one and sure enough, a bit of mail does scrub caked food out of a pot very well; it doesn't clog up because its holes are so large. This use does rust the mail away in a bit of time however.

So, old mail that doesn't get buried or maybe offered up in a church, as happened with helmets, helms, and some plate, vanishes. It has to be kept away from humidity. Good luck with that in Europe.


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Posted on Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:52 am
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Kombaticus wrote:
Does anyone have any examples of early Medieval mail? Perhaps something between the 13th Century and the Viking Age?


European riveted mail hauberk, 13th to 14th c, rings dia. about 6 mm, wire thickness 1-2 mm, circular cross-section, alternate welded solid and riveted rings, later repairs (they occur randomly and differ in size and gauge from the other rings), possible / likely that this originally was a typical, closed front hauberk of the 13th/14th c with attached hood and gloves and altered at a later date. The hole in one side may have been for a sword scabbard to pass through. Märkisches Museum Berlin.




Riveted mail coif (hood), found intact in the tower room of Tofta Church, a medieval Lutheran church on the Swedish island of Gotland Sweden. The hood is unique in that it is exceptionally well preserved, and because it has original leather straps. The hood has been carbon 14 dated to the 1200s, conservation was commissioned in 2007 to preserve, assemble and analyze the hood, the work was completed in Dec 2008 and the hood was put on exhibit in Tofta church in Jan 2009, before and after. H5.


European (Norway) riveted mail hauberk, fragments from Gjermundbu, the only Viking Age mail shirt found in Scandinavia, app 10th century, links with an anti-clock wise lap, oval rivet hole, high domed rivet head, prominent oval tail of wire, sub-circular cross section, alternating rows of links of an unknown closure type, circular with flats on the external circumferences and wire of sub-rectangular cross section.

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Posted on Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:03 pm
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Hi,

I don't know if could be of interest because of bad quality of the images and the few information I can give, but this an ancient maille from middle east area.
It's a 4in1 not rivetted and I took the pictures in the Quay Branly museum, in Paris.
If you want to see them bigger you find it in my web page, at the end of the long image gallery:http://www.glassmagma.com/2014/07/20/tutto-scorre/




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Posted on Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:30 am
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mywildhands wrote:
Hi,

I don't know if could be of interest because of bad quality of the images and the few information I can give, but this an ancient maille from middle east area.
It's a 4in1 not rivetted and I took the pictures in the Quay Branly museum, in Paris.
If it is butted Indo-Persian mail and not riveted then it is not very old, certainly not ancient, 19th century most probably.

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Posted on Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:20 am
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Thanks for sharing nice & useful information. The similar armors from chain mail and leather protection to full suits of armor., chain mail armor I found on Museum Replicas.






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