Saw Cutting Issues
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Joined: July 17, 2009
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Location: Denver, Colorado

Saw Cutting Issues
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Posted on Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:16 am
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My power saw cutting set-up is nearing the end of its useful life. Before I plunk down any more money, I want to take a good look at what I need, and what will work best.

Background: I am making and selling stainless steel chainmaille jewelry. I cut at least 10 pounds of stainless wire per month, but that could increase. Most commonly used wire sizes are 045, 063, and 080 inch. Sometimes I go as big as 1/8" wire (for stainless toggles) and as small as 1mm (for sterling silver). I also sometimes cut titanium.

Questions/Problems/Concerns:

1) What size motor should I use if I buy a dedicated motor. Is the money better spent on a piece of stationary equipment (lathe, drill press, milling machine since I don't have any of those) rather than a general purpose motor?

2) Pros/cons of speed reduction by belt/pulley vs. rheostat...

3) Mounting of the arbor (If I don't use a drill press, lathe etc). I need it to be rock solid and have easily replaceable wearing parts.

4) For Coil feeding, I am more or less determined to go with an open top table saw setup. Design and fabricating ideas along these lines would be appreciated.

5) Minimizing burrs is a major concern. My old system is capable of making horrible burrs, particularly as parts started to wear out. I want to take steps to build something that will minimize this problem.

6) For lubrication, I have been using water soluble cutting oil that I dip the coil in then cut. It works okay but would be better if there was a continuous source of lube on the blade. I need something practical that I can build. I also put beeswax on the blade which doesn't seem to hurt anything.

I have tried the "off the shelf" product for ring cutting which is widely promoted on this site. It worked okay for a while but is wearing out and I cannot get replacement parts. I also don't like the coil holding mechanism.

Help me figure out what the best saw set up looks like. Thoughts, suggestions?



Joined: December 19, 2009
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Location: Chippewa Falls, Wis

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Posted on Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:06 am
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well, for your first question,either to buy a piece of equipment or a motor. that really depends on quite a few things to be honest. sure a lathe or a mill/metal working drill press could be made into ring cutters, but they are going to be expensive, and really not ideal for cutting rings, they can do the job ... but it would be over kill, it would be like taking the engine out of your car and putting it in your lawn mower. with that being said, i'd suggest going the route of a motor, now as for what type and kind ... there again a lot of different possibility's. now this recommendation will kind of answer your next question as well. i would highly recommend going with a DC motor, this way you can add in an electronic motor speed control, no changing of pulleys to go faster or slower, no loss of torq with the use of just a rheostat this would IMO be the ideal way of controlling the speed of the motor.

now on a side note, since the advent of the ringanator E-Z martin has shown us that a dc motor in a hand drill is powerful enough to cut rings, an idea i have been toying around with is, in the home brew robotics circles, Dewalt motors have been used for a long time to power the drive systems on both track and wheeled robots, why not use the same to power a ring cutter? the motors are rather powerful, and fairly compact, another added pluss would be if done right, you could get this system to run off a stranded drill battery pack, thus making the system portable and compact. if so desired.

now as for holding the arbor, i would defiantly go with some type of bearing passable a pillow block bearing like the one we used when we built CShakes ring cutter he designed.





one would be good, but a pair would be even better.

now as for lubricant/oil i would stick with what you are using, but instead of dipping the coils, i would use a flood system, and this is as simple as going down to your local gardening center and finding yourself a simple submersible pond pump like this one:

http://www.harborfreight.com/92-gph-miniature-submersible-fountain-pump-68389.html

then all you need is some hose, a ball valve to help regulate the flow, and for nozzels what i used was some old scrap copper tubing i had laying around, shoved into the hose, and the other end flattened.

here are some pics:




Joined: July 17, 2009
Posts: 451
Submissions: 76
Location: Denver, Colorado

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Posted on Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:57 am
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Fabulous - now we are getting somewhere. Good info Dravin.

I agree dedicated motor rather than spending big money for a drill press or lathe.

DC motor with rheostat sounds like the way to go. I found the dewalt robot motor site...and the motor is all I need - not the whole drill - brilliant!. What size would you recommend?

For mounting I will go with a pair of bearings similar to the one in your picture. That will be rock solid and easy to replace if they wear out.

For lubrication, I think you are right it needs to be continuous wet. That will take some doing but it will be great once it's done.



Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
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Location: Germany, Herxheim

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Posted on Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:22 am
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OK, let me share my personal experiences.

Motor size depends on method of speed reduction - a rheostat driven motor needs to be bigger, estimated in the 500+ watts region, as that type of speed reduction also reduces torque - and torque is what's needed. An exception were frequency steered (3-phase) motors, that maintain a good torque over their speed range. A geared-down single-speed motor (gearbox and/or pulley set) doesn't need to be as large; my geared-down 250W motor proved to be more than sufficient. But a bit larger one, having reserves, doesn't hurt in any way.

Despite being a Ringinator proponent I see and experienced some of its downsides. Basically it's a well done design, but it exhibits wear-out problems - if a replacement with ball bearings would be available instead the Bronze block, I'd buy it on the spot. Mine was damaged once by out-of tolerance blades I got from a well-known different vendor (I won't disclose them, as I got my money back) - I needed to replace the Bronze block, and returned to Martin's blades.

About the 'open table feed' - I tried a modification with a spring loaded rubber wheel instead the clear plastic one delivered with the Ringinator - and faltered. I continue to use a plate, but a slightly modified one, now.

Burrs - Only if the speed (rpm and/or feed rate) is chosen too high. Low RPM and patience avoid them - and increase blade life expectancy. Much more than a hundred thousand BA, or twenty thousand steel rings per blade are no exception.

Lubrication - I use the sump lubing method with the blade's 'underside' being immersed in a pot of paraffin oil, shown already in several posts - and I don't intend to change that, as long as it works well enough for my needs.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: January 29, 2005
Posts: 674
Submissions: 0
Location: St. Paul, MN

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Posted on Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:07 am
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Well, in my defense all I have to say is: email me. I can't fix issues I know nothing about. Replacement parts are also available; they just aren't listed on the site itself.

What is it that you don't like about the coil holder?

Quote:
Basically it's a well done design, but it exhibits wear-out problems - if a replacement with ball bearings would be available instead the Bronze block, I'd buy it on the spot.


Before I either had to spend a lot to get a prototype made, or get a full batch of parts made. Both options are expensive and I couldnt afford to do it just to try it out. Now that I have the equipment to make these myself, I can try out new designs and fiddle with them as needed.

I've already switched the design from a solid block, to one with replaceable sleeve bearings. If they wear out you can swap them out. (arbor press or vise needed) Next parts order I place I'll get a few ball bearings and give that design a try as well.

As for motors, anything larger than 1/4HP will work. You might be able to go smaller, but 1/4HP+ I can guarantee works.

A drill press is a good investment. For ~$100 you should be able to get a 12+ speed floor model. (Craigslist!) Coupled with a very simple hack and a $20 right-angle drive you can turn the EZ into something like this. Allowing you to use the consistent power of a drill press as opposed to a drill. Plus the liquid cooling still works.

http://i.imgur.com/S5t66.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pni8z.jpg

Another option I've been considering is to couple the cutter to the slow shaft of something like this: http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-wet-6-inch-dry-grinder-35098.html At a constant 160rpm it is a great speed for steel/Ti. But a drill press is still the better option imo.

As for other general tips, buy a large block of plastic to play with, and use sharp tools.


Make saw cut rings: http://www.Ringinator.com/

Joined: July 17, 2009
Posts: 451
Submissions: 76
Location: Denver, Colorado

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Posted on Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:16 pm
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Zili, Thanks for your input. You always have good ideas to share.

I see your paraffin sump here. Easy to do and looks like it works. My feed track will be level, so I will give this a try with the water-soluble oil I already have.

http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=16400&highlight=paraffin

I agree torque is the issue, and that is the reason for using belt/pulley. I already have the belt and pulleys so it would be easy to go that method if I want. What do you think about this motor (with belt and pulleys)? It has 1/2" shaft that would fit my pulleys.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=202820622&R=202820622

Regarding burrs, I agree too fast rpm and feed rate is the problem, along with from insufficient lube/coolant. I have never come anywhere close to 20,000 steel rings, so I must be doing something wrong. I will have much more control over these factors once I get this new system working.

For the DC motor method, I am having second thoughts after researching it last night. I would need dc power supply, plus the rheostat and motor.



Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

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Posted on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:20 pm
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@Pfeiffer: I have NO idea, whether that motor will work well, as I don't see even the RPMs that motor achieves, in the product description. And naturally all gearing-down calculations have to be based on that number. The typical blade RPMs I use are in the 100 to 200 range, and up to 500 for Aluminium - in doubt I tend to chose slower than theoretically possible, instead of being even a little bit too fast. I never cut as fast as is seen in numerous videos. But I must admit that I don't need so huge amounts of rings, that I'd have to worry about being less productive as possible. And please note, that I have changed my setup to a slightly tilted one (just ten degrees), in the meanwhile - naturally, the sump cooling continues to work well.

@Martin: You should have differentiated in your answer, which of your sentences addressed whom. For example I am well aware of the fact that spare parts are available - I once got my replacement bearing block from you - and I'm a proponent of your little machine, as well as for getting supplies like replacement blades from you. But it must be allowed to criticise downsides, if they exist. And so I continue to be interested in testing a block with ball bearings, or one with replaceable Bronze tube bearings; to achieve an even higher ring quaity as I do already. Ball bearings of type R1212 (in 2RS variant to be sealed ones) would fit, and should work well, without basic constructive changes elsewhere, and the block could be machined even from cheaper Aluminium instead of Bronze. Just contact me per PM, as I might have a further constructive detail especially about this bearing type (in case you just ordered this type for tests), you might not yet know about.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: December 19, 2009
Posts: 246
Submissions: 3
Location: Chippewa Falls, Wis

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Posted on Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:39 am
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a DC power supply is cheap ... and more then likely you'll have one laying around somewhere that would work, an old printer power supply, i'd be willing to bet 90% of the electronic devises in your home are DC driven. now for speed control, a rheostat will work, but like zilla said you would need a larger motor to get the torq, but now if you use a pulse width modulator based speed controller you do not loose the torq as you would with just a rheostat. something along the lines of this:

http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/MX033

http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=1644


now, if you didnt want to make this cordless, you could just find an old broken corded drill, as long as the motor and power supply was good, you would have all the electronics minus the PWM control

Joined: July 17, 2009
Posts: 451
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Location: Denver, Colorado

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Posted on Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:35 am
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Dravin, Thanks for the info. I probably could piece together a dc system if I wanted to, but I have belts and pulleys available already. So I decided to go with a regular motor that I can plug in the wall socket.

I went ahead and bought a 1/3 hp motor today at home depot, price was $73 ($95 with mounting bracket and tax). No shipping since I bought it locally. Also, if I decide I need more power, I can return/exchange for 1/2 hp or even 3/4 hp if that should be necessary. This motor has 2 speeds: 1750 rpm and 1140 rpm, and I set it to run at 1140. With a mess of gears I have, I can cut near any speed I want, as low as 100 rpm. Finalizing gear calcs now.

The 1/3 hp motor I got today pulls about 6.5 amps max, so I can run it off my workbench circuit no problem. Best of all, it is surprisingly QUIET. I have turned it on and it seems powerful, but it will be a few days until I am cutting - that will be the real test.

Now I need to dig in on my coil feed, and get this thing put together and dialed in. It is a weird feeling knowing that I cannot cut any rings at all right now (if I get an order I'm screwed). But I will be running again, better than ever, in a few days. Cutters



Joined: July 17, 2009
Posts: 451
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Location: Denver, Colorado

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Posted on Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:26 pm || Last edited by Pfeiffer on Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Anybody know where I can get a longer slitting saw arbor (like 5 or 6 inches long)?
-------------------------------------
Edited: don't need it now (see below).



Joined: July 17, 2009
Posts: 451
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Location: Denver, Colorado

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Posted on Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:11 pm
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OMG! Check this out:
http://www.super-tech.com/root/taig/taigpart.asp
This might be just what I was looking for...

Headstock..............................................$60.25
1/4 hp motor with cord and switch .........$104.50
Motor mount (Nema 48 )............................$5.25
Mounting board (sliding)............................$7.70
Slitting Saw Arbor (screws onto headstock) $5.75
Step pulley set with belt...........................$25.80
Headstock mounting plate (if not included) $12.00
Blades (already got 'em)...........................$0.00
Coil feed (angle track I have)....................$0.00
================================
$221.25

I think I am going to return the motor I just bought and go with the whole kit listed above...stay tuned. Cutters



Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:56 pm
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Wow! Good find on those Taig parts. That's pretty cheap. I might prefer a PWM setup but everything looks solid.


www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

Joined: July 17, 2009
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Location: Denver, Colorado

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Posted on Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:30 pm
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I'm probably going to go with Taig. I like it because it is affordable to start, but I can add more components and increase functionality as money becomes available. The headstock alone is good as gold for the price.

By PWM, I assume you mean 'Pulse Width Modulation' for the rpm's. Don't know much about electrical stuff. I know enough to wire up the motor I have. Beyond that, I prefer mechanical stuff I can see.

It's going to be an awesome setup - can't wait to have it done. Picture and possible do-it-yourself article to follow once I have it dialed in and working.



Joined: July 17, 2009
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Location: Denver, Colorado

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Posted on Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:21 am
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Crazy...Awesome...and with a 0.008" kerf blade - Perfect!
http://www.taigtools.com/c1110.html

Be the first kid on your block to get one....my order is going in first thing tomorrow morning. Coif Smiley



Joined: October 22, 2010
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Posted on Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:25 pm
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great info from everyone - thx. i would like to add that my 2 cents about the lubrication. beware that pond pumps and the like are designed for pumping water not oil. they may work for a bit, but will easily get overworked submersed in oil. i use an over head gravity constant feed lubrication system easily built at home with minimal supplies. hang an overhead bag or plastic bowl, cut a 3/16" hole in the bottom, seal a 1/8" tube with superglue in the hole, run the tube directly over the saw blade, and fill with lubrication oil. as the oil drips down, have a system of filters and a bowl to catch the oil. if you use a liter of lubrication oil, it will consistently flow for 2 hours. then, just refill the top bowl when empty. requires no pump, green alternative - little to no waste, and works great because the blade is getting constant lube. i tried the other methods listed, but working with titanium grade 5 required me to use a more consistent flow method. i use metal threading oil. bought one liter of it and never had to buy more - cut hundreds of thousands of rings so far.



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