mobius vs. Spiral
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mobius vs. Spiral
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Posted on Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:23 pm
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I think I may have found the reason for the lack of cohesion/consistency in Spiral.

I believe we've been combining two different ring interactions into one "family": Spiral, and mobius. We've been assuming that a mobius connection=Spiral, but it doesn't. The mobius ball, while it is not a weave, is a valid ring interaction, but it is not the same as the Spiral interaction.

We have weaves in Spiral that spiral, but do not have mobius connections (examples: Double Half Persian Spiral and the This-Is-Not series of weaves) and mobius connection weaves that do not spiral (Examples: Voodoo, Hoodoo, Daisy Chain, and M3) . The Spiral interaction requires it has another ring interaction to remain stable, thus we end up with European-Spiral weaves, Persian-Spiral weaves, etc., but the mobius connection is stable on its own. The mobius connection lends itself to being spiraled more than any other interaction, but it is still a separate interaction.

Also, there is a difference between a mobius connection, and a moibized (or whatever term variant you prefer) connection. A mobius connection is when a mobius ball is used as the structural basis for a weave (as in Voodoo), where as a moibized connection is a substitution connection where a connection in a weave is substituted for a mobius ball. It (the moibized connection) is purely a decorative connection anda type of weave modification, where as a mobius connection is structural.

The Spiral interaction and mobius connection need to be dealt with individually. Spiral as a special case ring interaction, and mobius as a family ring interaction.



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Posted on Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:56 am
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I'm glad you brought this point up. When I was trying to put all my thoughts about spiral weaves down to post in the tag thread, I started to write down some definitions, but I put them aside. Here's what I wrote:

Ring Interaction - the defined geometric relationship formed by multiple ring connections.
Grain - a serial, directional overlapping of rings created by ring interactions.
Persian Grain - grain rings that are stacked flat against each other on the same plane.
Spiral Grain - grain rings that are stacked in rotating geometric planes around a central axis.
Spiral Interaction - a predominantly TE ring interaction that rotates clockwise or counterclockwise around a central axis.
Mobius Interaction - a spiral ring interaction where the eyes are stacked on top of each other, essentially forming one eye. There is no grain in a Mobius Interaction, but it does have a clockwise or counterclockwise rotation.

Nárrína wrote:
The Spiral interaction and mobius connection need to be dealt with individually. Spiral as a special case ring interaction, and mobius as a family ring interaction.

I agree, spiral and mobius are not interchangeable. However, when deciding which one is the head of a family, I look at it like this: A mobius is always a spiral interaction, but a spiral is not always a mobius interaction. Therefore spiral is the primary interaction and mobius is the secondary.

Those are my thoughts so far Nárrína. Smile What do you think?


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Posted on Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:13 am
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lorraine wrote:
What do you think?


I think you two are both making a lot of sense...

Now where did I put my brain-merger device? Coif LoL



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Posted on Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:14 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
lorraine wrote:
What do you think?


I think you two are both making a lot of sense...

Now where did I put my brain-merger device? Coif LoL

I'm pretty sure Nárrína just needs to send me my very own pointy ear cuff and then we'll be all set to brain-merge. Very Happy


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Posted on Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:21 pm
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This does make a great deal of sense. I have always wondered about spiral and morbius and this helps me to understand it better. Between the two of you I just may start understanding this theory thing if I am not careful. Thanks


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Posted on Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:31 pm
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lorraine wrote:
What do you think?


I think we're off to a good start Smile.

I've been considering mobius to be the primary family interaction for a couple of reasons:

1) It's stable on its own while Spiral needs a host interaction.
2) It is consistent in its behaviour; Spiral varies based on what family it is altering.
3) Spiral chain itself is an elongation/continuation of a mobius connection.
4) When those weaves that are not Spiral-mobius weaves, but Spiral-some-other-family weaves are removed into those other families and you look at what's left in the "Spiral" category the interaction that is common to all is mobius.



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Posted on Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:24 pm
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*thinks he likes where this is heading* Smile

-phong



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Posted on Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:43 am
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the first 3 rings in spiral 4 and in mobius ball© share the same interaction.

the fourth ring in both instances share interaction characteristics, in the same way that e4 and e6 share interaction characteristics.


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Posted on Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:29 pm
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Since the start of this thread and the one on interactions started earlier (http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=16137) I have been really trying to digest and disect the basic concepts and I need some help. [everybody collectively turns and says "what's new?"]

What is your definition of an interaction and a connection?

Narrina as I read your first post it seemed like at times you were using them interchangeably and in my mind I think they are two different things.

Personally, my definitions of the two are:
Interaction: where rings influence the rings around them but are not directly connected to them. i.e. - eyes, cousins...

Connections: different ways that rings are joined together. In this area I have two categories 'Construction Connections' which are connections that are the main/basic connections used to form a weave, for example TE, AE. Than the other category is 'Structural Connections' which are connections that help to define the structure/shape of the weave, for example inverted, japanese (causing geometric patterns), orbital...


I bring this up because I agree with your thoughts on mobius and spiral, but I am trying to figure out where in my scheme of things the mobius and spiral would fall. Is it a 'Structural Connection' that determines how a weave is shaped or is it a 'Construction Connection' meaning it is a basic connection or is it an interaction that actually uses connections. Which than I need to go back and re-think things.

Your thoughts?


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Posted on Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:50 pm
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I would say that interactions (European, Persian, Japanese, Mage, Inverted, mobius, Spiral.....) are made up of connections (TE, AE, NE....). There are family interactions (European, Persian, mobius, Japanese, and Mage) and there are special case interactions (Captive, Orbital, Inverted, and Spiral) which override the family interaction.

lorraine wrote:
Ring Interaction - the defined geometric relationship formed by multiple ring connections.


Lorraine pretty much summed it up with the above quote.


Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

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Posted on Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:27 pm
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Can I sign up for one of those mind meld things? I understand now where you are coming from, but there are so many more questions. Mad I may have to get back to you on this at a later time. Thanks


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

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