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Joined: July 23, 2006
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Posted on Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:21 pm
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TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
What does 'Radial' describe in this?


Radials are similar to sheets and webs, but the way in which they extend is different. It's more of a circular * expansion rather than the linear + expansion. They are a specific type of sheet, web, and 3D weaves.

Phong wrote:
I'd also strongly against adding a 'band' classification.


Honestly, I wasn't entirely sure of that one myself.


Phong wrote:
There's nothing European about Magemaille. There are no TE connections, as there are no eyes. It's Japanese, 'possibly' Invert. I'd say more Japanese, since nominally all the connections are orthogonal...................simple 1-1 chain, which is the simplest chain form of the Japanese family.


Yes, it is much closer to Japanese structure. But the difference in its grain (I believe) is enough of a difference. It may technically be a bolting connection, but so are Japanese connections. Most bolt connections are not acceptable weave connections because they are often used to ignore the more structural connection options and are basically cop-out connections. However, there are (although admittedly few) weaves in which the bolt is a structural connection.

I don't see 2-1 Chain as belonging to any family because it is the root weave for all the others.

It is not simply about what kind of eye connection a weave has, but how that eye is used that determines weave families. A weave family can only have one head as otherwise the weave lineage of what comes from what gets confused and becomes a mess. If you can not structurally get from the head (or parent) weave of a particular weave family to the other weave in question than regardless of eye type that weave is not from that family. The structure must be able to be derived from the head(parent) weave. How can a weave be said to be from a particular family if structurally it is not descended from the head (parent) weave of that family? There is no adoption policy for weave families.


lorraine wrote:
I'm going to try to explain here why I think Spiral is its own separate family


Lorraine, I'm not saying that there aren't some weaves in Spiral that couldn't be considered a family (there very well may be).

However, Spiral as it currently is, is not a family. Most of the weaves in there can be structurally traced back to other families, and those that can be traced back to Spiral are actually variants and modifications and not weaves; thus, not a family in and of itself, but, presently, a subfamily. It might be that later on a weave is made that in and of itself is structurally a weave and yet can be traced back to Spiral. At that point, its tag can always be switched from a subfamily to family.

Thus far, when a weave has been submitted it's, more or less, just been placed in whatever family it seemed to fit best (or thrown in hybrid if no one knew what to do with it) based on eye type(s) and not the other structural factors (such as how the thing is actually constructed and from what it is based). When the library was started this wasn't as big an issue as there weren't that many weaves; now, however, it is. We have weaves (and their derivatives) in families that aren't structurally related to the heads of those families and they need to get split off into separate families. This will allow the library to be better (and more accurately) organized and grow more efficiently.

While weave interactions might not change, our understanding and perception of them does. The library's current structure is so narrow and rigid that when something that's different comes along we don't have a place to put it and so the families we do have get cluttered with weaves that shouldn't be there. When a building is being built in an earthquake prone area it needs to be structurally sound (as any building should be), but if they make it to rigid when that earthquake comes it collapses because there wasn't any flexibility. The building needs to be able to have enough flexibility in it's structure that it won't collapse, but will shift with the earthquake a bit, and so only need minor repairs and not be rebuilt from the ground up. It's the same thing with the weave library. It needs to be structurally sound, but have enough flexibility so that as it grows and our perception/understanding of weaves and how they work changes it will only need minor tweeks and not another complete overhaul.



Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

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Posted on Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:27 am
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The code changes required for this to all be possible have now been made... You should start to see some big changes to the Weave DB in the coming weeks, or as Narrina finds the time.

Sidenote: As weaves are moved and re-tagged, the 'Hybrid' and 'Orbital/Captive' sections will slowly empty.
FEAR NOT!
These weaves have not disappeared, and you'll be able to find them within other sections of the DB. (EG: Something like Euro Persian Hybrid would change from "Hybrid" to "European & Persian" and be searchable under both.)
Once the tagging is complete, the old 'Click here to browse families' page will disappear, and be replaced with the option to list weaves by Single, or Multiple tags.



Joined: April 02, 2008
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Posted on Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:27 am
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narrina and DL I have been thinking about this great new system that you have developed and some of the comments that ZiLi made about making it easier for newbies to find things. I have a thought and please tell me to jump off a virtual cliff if it would be to much work.

What if by every tag that can be selected for a search there was a picture and text description that tells what each of the tags are? I am thinking for the ones like 'inverted', 'berus', 'unbalanced', 'progression'. Just a thought to help make it easier for the new people or people who aren't sure what they are. I would also be willing to help with something like that if needed.


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

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Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:58 am
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narrina, i'm confused a little..

is the "mage" interaction present in european 4-1?

the primary grain in the "windmill" expression of e4 seems to be mage...
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=122

i see weaves are combinations of root (2-1 chain) interactions.
it is true that those 2-1 interactions are mostly unstable by themselves... they need another interaction to hold everything in place.
sometimes a weave is composed of 2 of the same interaction. (j4 - j2 and j2)
sometimes a weave is composed of two separate root interactions (e4 - mage and euro(TE))

this system seems to me to have less rigidity than the system which names a single weave as the head to a family.

unless we are simply miscommunicating the term "family" with each other.. i may think "phyla" while you may be thinking "class".


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: April 02, 2008
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Posted on Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:22 pm
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sakredchao - you probably saw this already, but here is a post narrina gave me on the theory thread to help me understand http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?p=210965#210941

For all I know that is what brought up your question. sorry f it was.


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

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Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:35 am
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my question was inspired by this comment, "The structure must be able to be derived from the head(parent) weave. How can a weave be said to be from a particular family if structurally it is not descended from the head (parent) weave of that family?"

i see the mage interaction in simple weaves like e4 and inverted round. so, i am asking narrina if that interaction is, indeed, the mage interaction or if i am seeing it incorrectly.

if i am seeing it incorrectly, what is that interaction in IR and e4?

if the entire system is founded on this concept, it needs to be able to be consistently applied... i view it as my job to call it out when i see that it is not. that's why it says "mouth" under 'position held'.. :/ or, that's my interpretation of my title.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:31 am
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I think you do a great job at being the 'mouth.' Keep up the great job!!

I just wanted to point out the thread because I was not sure if you had seen it or not. It would be great if we could put all the Mage discussions in one place, but for now this works.


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

MailleCode V2.0 T5.3 R4.4 E0.0 Feur MFe.sBr Wg Cwb G.7-5.1 I3.1-11 N20.5 Pj Dcdjt Xa1w2 S08

Joined: July 23, 2006
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Posted on Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:36 pm
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sakredchao wrote:

is the "mage" interaction present in european 4-1?


No, Euro 4-1 is purely a European interaction (hence it is the "head" of that family).

sakredchao wrote:
the primary grain in the "windmill" expression of e4 seems to be mage...
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=122


No, it's European, but it may have a slight Inverted interaction.

sakredchao wrote:
unless we are simply miscommunicating the term "family" with each other.. i may think "phyla" while you may be thinking "class".


That is a very strong possibility.

sakredchao wrote:
i see the mage interaction in simple weaves like e4 and inverted round. so, i am asking narrina if that interaction is, indeed, the mage interaction or if i am seeing it incorrectly.


Perhaps, what you are seeing is not a Mage interaction in European 4-1, but the European behavior in Magemaille as they share the same behavior (and thus a similar appearance) while having different connections and structure/construction.

sakredchao wrote:
if i am seeing it incorrectly, what is that interaction in IR and e4


Inverted Round has the European family interaction altered by the special case interaction Inverted. I consider Inverted Round a special case sub-family of European. European 4-1 is purely a European interaction.

Perhaps, you are deconstructing weaves a bit too far?

You were correct earlier when you said it looked like I was using the simplest stable weave for determining families, while you use the simplest interaction. There is a reason for that. If you try to isolate too much/deconstruct it too far, you won't be able to put it back together. There's only so far you can go back before it all starts to look the same and you can't make heads or tails of any of it. Also, some interactions (such as Inverted) require another interaction (such as European) to work as they are not stable on their own and the "host" interaction is and, therefore, cannot be family interactions.



Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

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Posted on Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:20 pm || Last edited by lorraine on Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Is it too late to suggest a weave tag? Well? Is it?

That's right... I'm going to anyway. Razz

Could we maybe have a weave tag of "beginner"? (I'm NOT suggesting we label all weaves with a difficulty tag. No "intermediate" or "advanced" tags. Once you get past "beginner", it's just too arguable.) We get asked the question, "What weaves should I do first" a lot. We also get asked, "How do I do this weave" and the answer is frequently, "Well, you should learn this one first and then you will be able to do that weave". I think a short list of weaves that most of us could agree are "beginner" is totally doable.

Weaves like:
2 in 1 Chain
European 4 in 1
Byzantine
Box Chain 4 in 1
Full Persian 6 in 1
Half Persian 3 in 1
Helm Chain
Stepping Stones
Spiral 4 in 1
Barrel
Flower
Japanese 4 in 1
Japanese 6 in 1

Well? Wha'cha think?

Edit: fixed the funky messed up quotes and updated the list.


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Posted on Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:25 pm
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I like that idea. Maybe the weave list proposed by you could be amended by the one or other weave, but basically I like it. So only one thing remains: letting the info show up in a proper place that this tag can be searched for...

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

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Posted on Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:33 am
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lorraine wrote:
Well? Wha'cha think?


yes yes yes yes yes

j4, j6


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Posted on Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:00 am
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Thought of another one...
Flower


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Posted on Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:59 pm
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I really like that idea, Lorraine!


Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

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Posted on Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:04 pm
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Nárrína wrote:
I really like that idea, Lorraine!


And with Narrina's stamp of approval, it comes into being... *poof*
Now, the ball is in her court to tag the appropriate weaves Razz

(See how well I pass the buck there? Wink)



Joined: July 23, 2006
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Posted on Sat Jun 18, 2011 6:45 pm
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After a discussion I recently had with ZiLi, two more tags have been added. Helm and Rhino have been added to the structure tags.


Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

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