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Joined: April 02, 2008
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:18 pm
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Phong wrote:
If something is self-limited in 2 dimensions, as Persian Dscale is, it's a chain. It might be a wide chain, yes, but it only extends in 1 direction. If something can be freely extended in 2 dimensions, it's a sheet.
-phong


Not to derail the thread, but there is an extended Persian Dscale, three strips wide, and a Persian DS sheet that has been developed so that might not be the best example. But I follow and agree with the main argument the tag 'band' does seem unnecessary.


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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:23 pm
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MusicMan wrote:
Phong wrote:
If something is self-limited in 2 dimensions, as Persian Dscale is, it's a chain. It might be a wide chain, yes, but it only extends in 1 direction. If something can be freely extended in 2 dimensions, it's a sheet.
-phong


Not to derail the thread, but there is an extended Persian Dscale, three strips wide, and a Persian DS sheet that has been developed so that might not be the best example. But I follow and agree with the main argument the tag 'band' does seem unnecessary.


I'd argue that those extensions are design-motivated decisions done to alter the weave; and are not weaves themselves. They become less "Persian Dragonscale" and more "2 sheets of (however wide I decided to make it) Euro4-1 connected with HP3-1 on the edges".

-phong



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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:44 pm
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Nárrína wrote:
sheet
3D
web
unit
radial
chain (or rope)
band (or strap)

I just wanted a bit of a clear up... What does 'Radial' describe in this? Is it the difference between full Persian and hilt chain (or Byz and Turkish round), as it can be expanded upon making the "tube" wider, or is it explaining the methodology for the "not tao 3, 4, 5, ect" weaves (or both)?

Should there also be a distinction between Cartesian 3D, Cylindrical, and Spherical expanding 3D weaves (Japanese 4 in 1 Cube, True Persian 12-1 Solid, and Japanese 5 in 1 examples respectively)?


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
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Joined: July 11, 2010
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Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:33 am
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
'Hybrid' was a generic catch all term invented to classify weaves that belonged to multiple familes.
In the future, we will simply be able to say "Persian and European"
They will show up in searches for either. And are thus, truely Hybrid.


So basically its streamlining the weaves to make it easier to find what you are looking for?

(Edited by Phong - fixed the quote tag)


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Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:51 am
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Hexenkind wrote:
Daemon_Lotos wrote:
'Hybrid' was a generic catch all term invented to classify weaves that belonged to multiple familes.
In the future, we will simply be able to say "Persian and European"
They will show up in searches for either. And are thus, truely Hybrid.


So basically its streamlining the weaves to make it easier to find what you are looking for?


Ayup! Very Happy



Joined: December 22, 2007
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Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:18 am
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Okay this is long, I know. Rolling Eyes But I just need to get this out. I took lots of pictures and wrote lots of stuff. And I'm not exactly sure this is where I should post this, but here it is anyway. Very Happy

I'm going to try to explain here why I think Spiral is its own separate family and not just a special TE weave or a Persian weave. First I have to define some of the terms that I use. In my past research, I have found that I agree with a great deal of what Tesserex had to say about weaves. (That was one smart kid. Anyone know what he's up to now? I'll bet it's fabulous and way over my head. Very Happy) Here are a couple of relevant links to his stuff that I find very useful, and that I use to define several terms.
Definitions of Weave Terms
Understanding the Persian Family
_____________________________________________________________
PERSIAN WEAVES
Persian weaves have single rings that make both an AE (Around Eye) and a TE (Through Eye) connection. These connections cause two flat, opposing grains along the weave.
Half Persian 3-in-1

Using the one silver ring as the example of a Persian connection, it goes TE (blue) AND AE (green).

The rows of TE/AE connections causes two opposing and flat grains of rings to stack up. One grain is along the top. One grain is along the bottom.

_______________________________________________________________________
SPIRAL WEAVES
Spiral weaves contain TE connections along a single, spiraling grain of weave.
Spiral 4-in-1

Using the silver ring as the example of a Spiral connection, it goes TE of the previous 2 rings (blue) and TE of the next 2 rings (green). There is an eye in the middle of this interaction, but the (silver) ring does not go directly around this eye. Therefore, I do not consider this an AE interaction.

The TE/TE connections cause one spiraling grain along the weave.


JPL3
JPL weaves contain an additionl set of weave grains (a cousin ring interaction) that is flat instead of spiraling, and is not found in typical Spiral weaves.

Just as in the Spiral 4-in-1 picture above, using the silver ring as the example of a Spiral connection, it goes TE of the previous 2 rings (blue) and TE of the next 2 rings (green).

The TE/TE connections cause a spiraling grain. It takes 3 rings to complete a full spiral around the weave.

The small ring AR causes a flat grain of rings to appear in JPL that does not appear in Spiral 4-in-1. There are 3 of these flat grains running down the length of the weave. One of these grains is marked in blue and is sometimes called a cousin interaction.
_____________________________________________________________



-Spiral weaves contain TE interactions that are significantly different from European TE interactions.
-JPL does not contain rings with both TE and AE interactions, and is NOT a Persian weave.
-JPL3 is not "just Spiral 4-in-1 with a smaller AR" because it contains flat grains in addition to the spiraling grains.


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Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:28 am
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JPL does indeed have an AE connection. In your penultimate picture, the silver ring goes around the eye formed by the blue 2 and red 1 rings. I didn't catch that before today, but it's there.

-phong



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Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:39 am
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Phong wrote:
JPL does indeed have an AE connection. In your penultimate picture, the silver ring goes around the eye formed by the blue 2 and red 1 rings. I didn't catch that before today, but it's there.

-phong

Well, I did mention under the Spiral picture:
"There is an eye in the middle of this interaction, but the (silver) ring does not go directly around this eye. Therefore, I do not consider this an AE interaction."

I struggled with that one before I wrote it. It is definitely an argueable point. What I'm trying to do is point out that it is not the same kind of ring interaction that Persian weaves contain... What if I called it a TE/AE/TE ring interaction?


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Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:46 am
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i agree with lorraine. spirals have eyes, but they are spiral eyes. fundamentally different from overlapped eyes..

the problem with tagging weaves like jpl and trinity is they are extremely simple. many of these simple weaves are mildly unstable.. by 'mildly unstable" i mean that if you bend the weave along a seam, the rings may change family interaction. or, the same ring interaction will hold characteristics of multiple families.

persian sheet 4 in 1. flat it is persian, bent it has a distinct european seam.

i don't know what the solution for this is.. it seems to be pick one or all.
==


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Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:27 am
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Just a remark: As tags shall be a help for searching weaves, in doubt all likely tags searched for should be set - to be found.

Never forget the user's need over theory.

-ZiLi-


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Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: August 30, 2008
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Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:38 pm
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ZiLi wrote:
Just a remark: As tags shall be a help for searching weaves, in doubt all likely tags searched for should be set - to be found.

Never forget the user's need over theory.

-ZiLi-


Disagree.

Asking for user input in a thread like this, is a good idea.
Allowing users to set the tags they want, is a bad idea.



Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:50 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Disagree.

Asking for user input in a thread like this, is a good idea.
Allowing users to set the tags they want, is a bad idea.


agree.

this is why i have been supporting narrinas decisions even when i do not agree with them.


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3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:45 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Disagree.

Asking for user input in a thread like this, is a good idea.
Allowing users to set the tags they want, is a bad idea.


Also agree. Amidst the historical calls for all-inclusiveness and paranoia about "losing information" it's often forgotten that the weavebase must also be *useful*. This is far more difficult to maintain when information/tags/etc can be added at a whim, and without deliberation and justification.

-phong



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Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:59 pm || Last edited by ZiLi on Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
ZiLi wrote:
Just a remark: As tags shall be a help for searching weaves, in doubt all likely tags searched for should be set - to be found.

Never forget the user's need over theory.

-ZiLi-


Disagree.

Asking for user input in a thread like this, is a good idea.
Allowing users to set the tags they want, is a bad idea.


I did not ask for the ability of users to set all tags they want - I thought tagging were an admin's job, and the admin would know what to set and what to avoid - maybe the submitter of a weave proposes a set of tags, but the final decision which ones are used of the proposed ones, and maybe adding further ones did the admin.

My opinion is that theory shall not dominate practice. MAILs justification to exist is to be a tool for practice first, for education second, and for research third. It's clear that it must be useable for all three, but I see a dominance for the first one.

And be honest: Isn't it as easy to remove an erroneously set or misleading tag, as it's to add a missing one? Maybe even a 'grading' of tags could be introduced - to be able to differentiate between 'objectively right', and 'perceived as being right' ones...

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: January 21, 2004
Posts: 1061
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Posted on Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:06 pm
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Woah, that raises an even bigger flag with me. Education should not be overrun by common practice. I feel it's MAIL's duty to educate maillers and correct misconceptions and misunderstandings they have. Particularly when talking about weave construction and theory, which is a technical issue. There might be different ways to view a weave, but allowing common (and sometimes technically incorrect) beliefs to trump actual fact is a bad road to start down.

Accommodating our users is helpful; kowtowing to them is not. Some sites take a "whatever you want to feel is great" approach; I'm proud that MAIL does not pander in this way.

-phong



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