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Posted on Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:48 pm
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i have been thinking.. watch out, i'm dangerous.

it was suggested that we have a place for members to comment on admin stuff. i'm pretty sure cynake would hate this idea if he were here to read it, but.. what if we created and used that forum for most of our public business? if it related to policy, or anything that relates to the membership, we should discuss it in a place where the membership has the ability to comment.

the current admin forum would become a place for BOD votes and discussing things in the admin panel, et cetera...

there are trolls and people who are difficult to deal with, because they'd rather argue than come up with solutions.. but there are also members who may have good ideas, but just don't know the proper place to type them out.

members, would you like to be able to participate in some of the discussions in the admin forum?

one of the things i like about MAIL is that we don't hide our admin discussions, like many other sites do. moving to an even greater extreme is right up my alley.

re:abstention.. how would it work? in US congress, when a person abstains from voting their vote is neither a yes, or a no.. their "present" vote tells their constituents that they were there, but they did not vote either way. in congress, they need a certain percentage of the total to pass a vote.. we do not now, nor have we ever, required this. we rarely get 50% BOD participation, as many of the BOD members are from a different era, and don't check on things as regularly.

i don't have a problem with an abstention option, but what use would it serve? when is a vote invalidated by abstention? there are some questions that need answering before we implement "abstention", or we have a repeat of the last vote. if we had 6 "yes" votes, and 3 "abstention" votes, what does that mean on a practical level?

also, i remember seeing the basic layout you had put together, shake.. i'm eager to see the fuller list, with that interconnecting map.. i've been waiting with anticipation to see a system someone else developed.

kim


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Posted on Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:47 pm
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sakredchao wrote:
members, would you like to be able to participate in some of the discussions in the admin forum?


Absolutely.

When I'm around, anyway Smile

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Posted on Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:20 pm
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sakredchao wrote:

members, would you like to be able to participate in some of the discussions in the admin forum?


Maybe although even when I could post there it didn't seem to make any difference.
Now the criticism is still happening and I can't even respond to it.


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Posted on Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:04 pm
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Legba3 wrote:
sakredchao wrote:

members, would you like to be able to participate in some of the discussions in the admin forum?


Maybe although even when I could post there it didn't seem to make any difference.
Now the criticism is still happening and I can't even respond to it.


Le Sigh... That's hardly constructive Sad


--


I'm sure it would be a trivial matter to hack phpBB to post a ghost thread in MAIL Help, or perhaps a totally seperate forum, whenever a thread was generated in the Admin Discussion... Or something?



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Posted on Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:17 pm
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Cshake:

Any member of MAIL has the power to change our policies. You can overturn our decisions and you can rewrite the charter. MAIL is a democracy.

Read the MAIL charter, it outlines the proper procedures for you to use.

http://www.mailleartisans.org/management/charter.php

If you want to change this you have to work within the system and take the initiative on yourself. You have to convince the rest of the membership of the rightness of your cause and offer a suitable alternative. I, for one, would be glad to see you do it.

I mean no offense to you, but posting a complaint(no matter how justified it may be) in the chat room doesn't accomplish anything.


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Posted on Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:25 pm
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Legba3 wrote:
Now the criticism is still happening and I can't even respond to it.


Legs, come on, what are you even talking about? If you have a complaint, post it! Otherwise, you're just being passive-aggressive...


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

— George Bernard Shaw
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Posted on Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:35 pm
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sakredchao wrote:
it was suggested that we have a place for members to comment on admin stuff. i'm pretty sure cynake would hate this idea if he were here to read it, but.. what if we created and used that forum for most of our public business? if it related to policy, or anything that relates to the membership, we should discuss it in a place where the membership has the ability to comment.


I'm not sure I see the point. Anyone can start a thread with a link to an active admin discussion, and they do, fairly often. What would a whole new forum add to that? Besides, doesn't "requests" kind of already fall into this area?

Quote:
i don't have a problem with an abstention option, but what use would it serve? when is a vote invalidated by abstention? there are some questions that need answering before we implement "abstention", or we have a repeat of the last vote. if we had 6 "yes" votes, and 3 "abstention" votes, what does that mean on a practical level?


I see it as a pulse-check. A proposal needs 50%+ of votes to pass regardless, so an abstention is like a no vote, but it can be instructive whether people didn't vote for it because they hate the idea, or if they don't like it as proposed, or if they just don't care. The abstentions let you know if you need to ask more questions afterwards...


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

— George Bernard Shaw
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Posted on Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:29 pm
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Casting an abstention vote would need an explanatory post in the thread, to explain why they were abstaining, and what if any objections they had to the vote itself. Which is what was attempted to do in the recent vote, and which is what was steamrolled over by the other participants.

So there's not much point in giving the conscientious objectors a formalized way to be ignored.

-phong



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Posted on Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:38 pm
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An abstention is a valid and honorful way to show that one has acknowledged the fact of a vote in progress, but having no opinion about a matter - or objections about the voting itself. And that is always better than a 'false no' or a 'perceived ignorance' that is directed against the procedure and not the matter to be decided upon. So I am a proponent of giving voters the possibility to tell about with their vote while being counted as voter.

-ZiLi-


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A single link will be worth nothing.
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A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
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-'me

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Posted on Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:44 am
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Phong wrote:
Casting an abstention vote would need an explanatory post in the thread, to explain why they were abstaining, and what if any objections they had to the vote itself. Which is what was attempted to do in the recent vote, and which is what was steamrolled over by the other participants.

So there's not much point in giving the conscientious objectors a formalized way to be ignored.

-phong


Unless abstention votes didn't count as a "no" vote but rather as a stay of proceedings. A place holder vote to indicate that the voter is not yet ready to decide the issue but intends to vote within a reasonable time frame. There could also be an option to cast a neutral vote.

Is that the sort of thing you want? If so, is it your opinion that the charter should be changed to allow that?


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Posted on Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:08 am
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Phong wrote:
...Which is what was attempted to do in the recent vote, and which is what was steamrolled over by the other participants. So there's not much point in giving the conscientious objectors a formalized way to be ignored.
</passiveaggressive> Wink

Folks not agreeing with you is not being steamrolled. You too are allowed to create votes, Phongster. Why didn't you create one to do what you desired?


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

— George Bernard Shaw
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Posted on Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:19 am
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Deirdre wrote:
I still don't see what went so horribly wrong. *shrug* Just sayin'.

As has been pointed out to me by Blaise, nothing has happened that is specifically against the charter, so in that sense, nothing has gone horribly wrong.
However, I and some BOD members think that the voting itself was carried out hurriedly, significant concerns raised in both voting threads were met with hostility, and some people would have liked to see a more open method of allowing nominations. Horribly wrong? Not when you compare it to an earthquake, no, but there seem to be concerns about the official methods that were followed for appointing a new member to the board.

lorenzo wrote:
Cshake:

Any member of MAIL has the power to change our policies. You can overturn our decisions and you can rewrite the charter. MAIL is a democracy.

Read the MAIL charter, it outlines the proper procedures for you to use.

http://www.mailleartisans.org/management/charter.php

If you want to change this you have to work within the system and take the initiative on yourself. You have to convince the rest of the membership of the rightness of your cause and offer a suitable alternative. I, for one, would be glad to see you do it.

I mean no offense to you, but posting a complaint(no matter how justified it may be) in the chat room doesn't accomplish anything.

No offense taken at all, I welcome any input especially if what I'm doing is wrong.

That being said, looking directly at the charter, the only applicable section I see is 5.3 (Issue Polls). 5.1 is restricted to BOD only, and 5.2 (Voting) contains methods that all members can participate in but only BOD members can initiate. 5.4 (Published Guidelines) and 5.5 (Ad-hoc Committees) do not apply either, and there isn't anything else in the Procedures article.

5.3 deals with polls, which are to be posted to the discussion forum for very specific issues.

At the time of starting this thread I did not have a ready-made suitable alternative, and still don't quite. When something of the sort is ready, I will not hesitate to follow the official procedures for that. The discussion as it has been happening in this thread is not yet at a high enough level to fall under any specific charter guidelines.

What I wanted to bring up here couldn't be well explained in a simple poll, it required discussion. You also say that being in the chat room makes it not accomplish anything - would you rather it be in the "Requests" sub-forum? I intended to spur discussion about existing policies, not to request a specific change yet. Otherwise I don't see a better place... it started as a continuation of a conversation in chat anyway.


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Posted on Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:28 am
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I believe the request forum is the proper place for a member to bring an issue to the attention of the admins.

I'm actually a bit fuzzy on the proper forum for an issue poll but since it is MAIL related I assume that the knitting circle would do. MAIL help or group projects might also be appropriate. Perhaps we do need a new forum for this type of thing.

To post an issue poll you don't need a full solution, that would be putting the cart before the horse. For instance "The admin voting system needs to be overhauled, do you agree?" would likely be complete enough. In reality you would want to back up your position more than that for it to actually pass, throw out a few alternatives and possibilites, but you get the idea. The solution would be worked out only after the majority of the membership has voted that there actually is a problem.


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Posted on Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:44 am
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Blaise wrote:
Folks not agreeing with you is not being steamrolled. You too are allowed to create votes, Phongster. Why didn't you create one to do what you desired?


The concerns I and others raised were either not addressed, or addressed in a very marginal way. The majority of the responses were "this vote is taking too long" "we don't have a weaves admin and consequently the world is ending" "the vote has more yes votes than no votes" and "well the vote passed so that's that". There was never any attempt at discussion; the vote and the 'results' of it were just pushed and pushed and pushed. So yes, I call that steamrolling. There is no reason I should have to create a competing vote and try to shout louder than the other guys. Discussion should be able to happen in the first poll.

And as it so happens, I did create a poll to give me information that I desired. And it got one gag vote and a halfhearted attempt to say 'if you don't like it fix everything yourself and my weave organization hasn't gotten the uber response I wanted and also the vote passed so hush now".

-phong



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Posted on Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:13 am
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OK Blaise, will do.


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