MAIL Approval Vote:Nárrína for weaves Assistant?
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Admin Discussion
   

Shall we promote Nárrína to admin status, in the initial position of "Weaves Assistant"?
Yes
88%
 88%  [ 8 ]
No
11%
 11%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 9

Author Message

Joined: April 29, 2002
Posts: 3213
Submissions: 93
Location: Albany, New York

MAIL Approval Vote:Nárrína for weaves Assistant?
Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:59 am || Last edited by Blaise on Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Link to Post: Link to Post

So here's a redo on the original vote. Consider it a competing proposal...


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

— George Bernard Shaw
___________________________________

Maille Code V1.0 T5.7 R5.1 Fhd MCu Wc Cd G2.03/.56 I9.75/3.25 Pn Dacdjs S97 CCi

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:02 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

ugh.. let's set a time limit on this vote.. 2 weeks from today. this should have been resolved already.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 23, 2004
Posts: 1491
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:30 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

How can we have two votes for two positions running at the same time for the same person?

We've already voted on Narina imo. Just because for the first time we've had a few no votes, that doesn't mean that the vote didn't pass. We have a majority vote of active admins for yes...why are we confusing the issue with a second vote?

Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4610
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:44 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Because there is a difference between Asst. Weaves Admin. and Weaves Admin.? I really don't see a problem here...

This seems like two different votes to me...

"A few no votes" seems significant to me.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:30 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

a minority of no votes is significant, yes. a first, yes.. but invalidating a vote? no.

we accept a majority.. and for most votes we don't even require a majority greater than 51%.. the only exception is about charter changes, and that's a membership vote, not a BOD vote.

unless i missed something somewhere in the charter... if i did, please qoute it.

and -really- what do we have with another weave assistant? yet another person who comments in the admin panel and doesn't approve or reject anything?

are we assuming that lorenzo is going to train her and hand over the reigns?

for the first time in 10 years we can't seem to figure this out.

and, blaise, for the precedent, what exactly invalidated the other vote?
if i don't like a vote, can i vote no to invalidate it?

lotos was approved with 7 votes. 2.5 was approved with a similar number. everyone loves lotos and 2.5.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: January 21, 2004
Posts: 1061
Submissions: 75

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:33 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Chao, are you trying to stay willfully ignorant, or do you just not care that we're hiring someone for a job when we don't know what the rules for that job will be? I don't know how many times I can say this, but does it make sense to go in for a job interview and have them say "we love you, you're hired! Only we don't know what you'll be doing yet. But welcome aboard all the same."

But whatever. This is evidently going to get railroaded through one way or another, so I might as well stop banging my head against the wall.

-phong, hopes this turns out well



-- CGMaille tutorials now hosted here at MAIL! --

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:56 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

she has told me she's happy to apply whatever system we establish.. she has already obtained a majority vote.. and the dissenters did not dissent to her necessarily, but to the vote itself.

personally, i'd like to see her input in the guidelines thread, and any other discussions that take place about weave classification and acceptance here in the admin forum.

there were supposed to be a dozen people working on classification systems, i have yet to see anything but my own. did i miss something? how many months do we let this sit idle? the threads concerning this issue are getting cold. it is no longer a current discussion. by all means, tear apart my system. i would love a single critique of what i did. or, new ideas in the guidelines thread. new ground on any of the relevant issues.. but as it stands, discussion is very slow. there was momentum for awhile, but not anymore.

i don't mind dissent. i think dissent is great.. but just a "no, thanks" is not nearly as good as presenting a better alternative.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:36 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Opinions may change, but anyway - my vote FOR her stays firm. Kim, please note that any admin, also Assistant ones, are allowed to deny/approve within their 'jurisdiction' (besides comment work possible in any other area, even if not assigned to - help by getting additional opinions is always welcome, and a couple of us non-weaves admins already DO comment on weave submissions as well). The only real difference between 'main' and 'assistant' admin(s) of an area is, that in case of dissenting opinions on a submission, the main admin has the obligation to do the final decision.

Just give her the job and basta, as she has got already a VALID majority vote in the former poll. And the job's name doesn't matter, as long as it includes 'Weaves', to fill the obvious void in our team - just note that the poll states INITIAL position. Reshufflings, reassignments, or renaming of the job 'title' are possible anytime, once one is elected to be an admin at all. So this followup vote might not be without sense...

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: April 29, 2002
Posts: 3213
Submissions: 93
Location: Albany, New York

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:19 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

sakredchao wrote:
and, blaise, for the precedent, what exactly invalidated the other vote? if i don't like a vote, can i vote no to invalidate it?


Why would you ever think that the other vote was invalidated? I specifically posted, "Consider it a competing proposal."

We have 18 supposedly active admins atm, of whom only 9 have voted in the other poll. Even if ALL were yes or no votes, that would be less than a majority, so it seems to me like it's become stalled.

I think it would be foolish to turn down a volunteer that's been a productive member for quite some time, especially when we know we're going to need someone soon, so I posted this competing proposal as a compromise solution to get the process jumpstarted. Perhaps it has failed.

I wash my hands of it.


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

— George Bernard Shaw
___________________________________

Maille Code V1.0 T5.7 R5.1 Fhd MCu Wc Cd G2.03/.56 I9.75/3.25 Pn Dacdjs S97 CCi

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:23 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Blaise: You think we'd need a majority of ALL ACTIVE admins in either poll to have a decision? As I read the current rules, there is only a simple majority of votes necessary, based on the number of given votes, and not on total number of people allowed to vote. But if we really need such a grade of consent (and there IS something behind that thought), it should be an obligation for all active admins to give a vote, or a notice that one wants to vote neither no nor yes, as NOT taking part in either poll or discussion about (even a simple 'ACK, I noticed / I voted' note suffices for that) is a sign of current admin inactivity for me. It is not a shame to openly admit to have no opinion on a matter, it's also not a shame to miss a vote in case of being absent or too occupied otherwise to deal with, but neglecting a known matter is simply a sign of disrespect.

Maybe it was a mistake not to set a time limit for the first vote - maybe we should run both votes, until a number of ten yes or no votes is reached in any one of them to have a clear, undeniable majority - I really don't know.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:35 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

zili, you're right, i went through the management list last night and noticed that assistants were doing approving and denying.. that was a wrong statement on my part.

"We have 18 supposedly active admins atm, of whom only 9 have voted in the other poll. Even if ALL were yes or no votes, that would be less than a majority, so it seems to me like it's become stalled. "

multi-lingual submissions had 11 participating votes
page header had 9 participating votes
copyright notice had 12 participating votes
zili, lorainne and talia were approved en masse with 8 participating votes
2.5 menu was approved with participating 7 votes
DL was approved with 8 participating votes
DQ, mical, amadeus maxwell had 8 participating votes
kithplana had 10 participating votes
commercial content in the trading room had 6 participating votes
deirdre and kaablk had 13 participating votes
CG weave submissions had 9 participating votes

that's an average of 9.18 votes per topic, going back 5 years. i think the other vote had pretty average participation.. some of these topics received "no" votes, although never 1/3.

this thread about admin forum content had the same voting numbers, but "no" had 6, and "yes" had 3. and still we didn't pander to "obvious anonymous"..
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=2586

and, for the record, i'm working to establish how we deal with these things in the future.. i'm fine with this vote being here -this time-, but we should have a system. the charter -does- say a vote can be disqualified for lack of participation, but i don't think anyone one would want to go back to 2.0, or boot lotos for lack of votes.

blaise, i think in this case this might have been the thing to do.. it probably was.. i don't mind don't know, this is just getting old, to me.
kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4610
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:21 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

When Lorenzo started the first vote, I expressed the opinion that it was premature. Truthfully, I was then and still am stinging from the departure of Legba. Call me naive if you want, but I was truly stunned by the nastiness of the whole business. None of that is Narrina's fault, but she has been unfairly caught up in it anyway.

Yes, I realize that we need a new weaves admin. I don't think it's as dire a situation as some seem to think, but the need is there. One of the things I wanted to do was have a better definition of what the weaves admin does and to have some accountability for the job. I think we have made some really good progress there. Another thing I would have liked, was some time to step back and think about if there are other things we could do in the future, to prevent the fiasco that took place with the last weaves admin. It's possible that charging ahead and doing things the way they have always been done is fine. My gut feeling is that it's not...

I realize Narrina cannot respond here in AD, but Chao, it would have been nice if you had let the rest of us know that you are in contact with her. Not asking you to break any confidences, just perhaps allow her to voice her interest in the position directly rather than indirectly.

So to sum things up:
1. Still hurting from the departure of the last weaves admin.
2. Tried to say I think we are rushing this, more than once.
3. Wanted some time to clarify what the job is and to maybe come up with ways to avoid future fiascoes.
4. Got accused of filibustering and general troublemaking.
5. Left wondering what Narrina thinks.
6. I'm tired. I give up. I voted for Narrina.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: April 29, 2002
Posts: 3213
Submissions: 93
Location: Albany, New York

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:37 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Strictly speaking, Kim, you are right, a majority don't have to vote to make a decision pass. When we ratified the charter, there weren't many admins who didn't participate, so it never came up. We should probably review that at some point.

I agree with Lorraine, that the vote was premature. However, I feel like at this point, we're jerking a new recruit around for no reason, and I had hoped that this poll would build a more universal support for a compromise, but it seems to have made things worse.


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

— George Bernard Shaw
___________________________________

Maille Code V1.0 T5.7 R5.1 Fhd MCu Wc Cd G2.03/.56 I9.75/3.25 Pn Dacdjs S97 CCi

Joined: January 21, 2004
Posts: 1061
Submissions: 75

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:58 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Eh, don't feel bad, Blaise. This vote IMO isn't perfect, but it at least moves in the right direction. Seems a common point among the dissenters to the previous vote was regarding the prematurity of the vote itself, not Narrina in particular. So I'd suppose that bringing her in at least initially as a weaves assistant wouldn't be objectionable. And would get someone who can devote full-time-ish attention to the weave queue while the overall weaves policies are still being developed. Especially if this encourages (if not enables) Narrina to participate directly in the policy development discussion.

-phong



-- CGMaille tutorials now hosted here at MAIL! --

Joined: August 23, 2004
Posts: 1491
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:21 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

lorraine wrote:
"A few no votes" seems significant to me.


Not significant enough to completely flout the rules. We've voted, the vote has not been invalidated, the vote passed 6-3. The vote isn't there to get an idea of what everyone thinks, and then be thrown out just because a few people don't agree. It's called democracy. I didn't vote for Bush, but I didn't get to call a re-do. *shrug*

Seriously, whatever we call her, Main Weaves Admin, Weaves Assistant, it really doesn't matter. What matters is she's been voted in, and because only a few people don't like how things went, we're in a holding pattern.

I didn't like the way Phong was brought on, but he was brought on by a majority "vote" (although there was no official poll). Since I don't like the way it went down, should I throw a fit and demand we put him on hold and re-discuss? No, I shouldn't, and I wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, I would have voted for him if given the opportunity, but it went by in like 4-5 days, hardly adequate time, even for an assistant position.

The vote for DL was posted before any single one of us except for Cynake knew him; imo that vote was waaaaaaaaaay more premature than this one. DL is a great asset, and I'm thrilled he's here, but I think you hopefully will see my point.

No matter what, Narina is going to abide by the guidelines that are set forth for the weaves admin. It's not like if we don't nail down every flippin' detail she's going to jump in the queue and start going "look at me! I can do whatever I want! I'm drunk with admin power! Muwahahahahahahaha!".

And ya' know what? I bet she'd have something of value to contribute to the weaves admin guideline discussion if given the chance.

I'm sorry that a few of you feel we should completely ignore our own rules because you're not happy with how things happened. Get over it. This is not life or death, the sky is not going to fall on our heads, the earth will not split in two due to a ginormous earth quake if we go ahead and shackle her.

This whole argument is old old old. She's been voted in. Shackle her dangit.

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 1 of 3. Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:08 pm
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Admin Discussion
Display posts from previous: