Proposed Maille Code V2.0 - please post suggestions here.
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anon

[ Grand Master Speaker ]

Joined: June 17, 2007
Posts: 532
Submissions: 21

 Proposed Maille Code V2.0 - please post suggestions here. Posted on Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:43 am Link to Post: Proposed Version 2.0 of Maille Code My maille code is Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N14.12 Pj Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 CCc This is how it works CODE TYPE Maille Code [Code type]=Maille Code Tells people which form of the code is being used (I'm planing to do other variations such as a Wire code and a Personal code to include other info) V - VERSION Maille Code V2.0 V[Number]=V2.0 Shows which version of the code was used. In this case 2.0, 2 for the major revision number and 0 for the minor revision number. T - TOTAL RING COUNT Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 T[Number.Number]=T5.2 (20,000 to 29,999 rings) Total ring Count gives a rough estimate as to the total number of rings you have woven. The first number used is the number of digits in your ring count, eg 876 is made up of three digits, so the first number used is 3. The second number used is the first digit eg the first digit of 876 is 8 so the second number is 8 so for 876 you would put T3.8 R - RING COUNT OF LARGEST PROJECT Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 R[Number.Number]=R4.5 (5,000 to 5,999 rings) Ring Count gives a rough estimate as to the number of rings you have woven in your largest project. The first number used is the number of digits in your ring count, eg 876 is made up of three digits, so the first number used is 3. The second number used is the first digit eg the first digit of 876 is 8 so the second number is 8 so for 876 you would put R3.8 E - EARNING STATUS Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo E[Earning Code]=Eo (occasional) Earning code give an idea of the commercial role maille plays in the maker's life Earning Code List f = full-time, maille making is run as a full time business p = part-time, maille making is run as a part time business o = occasional, there is the occasional sale n = non commercial, maille is not sold for profit F - FAVORITE WEAVE Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 F[Weave Code]=Fj12.2 (Japanese 12 in 2) Favorite weave indicates your preferred weave, using a Weave Code. If your favorite weave is not listed please let me know and I'll consider adding it to the list. Weave Code List byz = Byzantine ds = Dragonscale eur = European weaves in general eX.Y = European X in Y (eg e4.1 = European 4 in 1) fpX.Y = Full Persian X in Y hd = Hoodoo hpX.Y = Half Persian X in Y hyb = Hybrid weaves in general jap = Japanese weaves in general jpl = Jens Pind Linkage jX.Y = Japanese X in Y orb = Orbital weaves in general per = Persian weaves in general spi = Spiral weaves in general M - FAVORITE MATERIAL Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s M[Material Code].[Variation Code(s)]=MFe.s (Stainless Steel) Material indicates your preferred material using a Material Code and Variation Codes. If your favorite material or variation is not listed please let me know and I'll consider adding it to the list. Material Code List Al = Aluminum Ag = Silver Au = Gold Br = Brass Bz = Bronze Cu = Copper Fe = Iron/Steel In = Inconel Mg = Magnesium Nb = Niobium Ni = Nickel Rb = Rubber Ti = Titanium *c = Craft Wire *p = Plastic *w = Wood Variation Code List a = anodized (only if Material is NOT Ag) a = argentium (only if Material is Ag) b = blackened c = colored e = etched f = filled g = galvanized m = mild e = enameled o = oxidized p = plated r = riveted s = stainless (Only if Material is Fe) s = sterling (Only if Material is Ag) t = twisted y = fine @ = split-ring \$ = scales So for Blackened Stainless Steel Fe.bs W - WINDING TECHNIQUE Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i W[Winding Technique Code(s)]=Wg\$i (Power wind with glove, buy rings and hand wind with improvised objects) Winding techniques lists the ways you regularly wind your coils, (please list from most used to least) If your winding technique is not listed please let me know and I'll consider adding it to the list. Winding Technique List s = I power wind using a safer system (wire feeder) g = I power wind using a glove h = I power wind using my bare hand c = I hand wind using a crank setup m = I hand wind using a hand mandrel i = I hand wind using an improvised object \$ = I buy coils/rings so I don't need to wind C - CUTTING TECHNIQUE Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es C[Cutting Technique Code(s)]=Cp\$es (Powered System, pre-Cut, end cutters and score & twist) Cutting techniques lists the ways you regularly cut your coils, (please list from most used to least) If your cutting technique is not listed please let me know and I'll consider adding it to the list. Cutting Technique List a = I use aviation snips b = I use bolt cutters c = I use side-cutters d = I use diagonal cutters e = I use end cutters j = I use a jump-ringer or similar device p = I use a powered system unlike a jump-ringer s = I use the score and twist method w = I use a jewelers saw or similar \$ = I buy pre-cut rings. G - GAUGES OF WIRE USED Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es G0.5-1.5 G[Smallest Gauge Used]-[Largest Gauge Used]=G0.5-1.5 (from 0.5mm to 1.5mm) Gauge lists the thinnest and thickest wires you have used in mm. You can use http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=3373 if you need to convert to mm I - RANGE OF INNER DIAMETERS USED IN MILLIMETERS Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 I[Smallest ID used]/[Largest ID used]=I1.2-10.8 (from 1.2mm down to 10.8mm) Id lists the smallest and largest ID you have used in mm. You can use http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=3373 if you need to convert to mm N - NUMBER OF WEAVES MADE AND MASTERED Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N14.12 N[NUMBER].[NUMBER]=N14.12 (made 14 weaves from the list, mastered 12 of those) The first number is the number of weaves on the Weave List you have done, the second number is the number of weaves on the Weave List you can do from scratch without needing assistance (such as refering to a tutorial) Weave List (please note this is only the start of a weaves list i'd like more weaves to be added to this list, so please post the names of weaves you feel should be included, here is a start, ideally i'd like it to be a list of the 100 most popular weaves) Euro 4n1 Euro 6n1 Euro 8n1 Euro 10n1 Euro 12n1+ Jap 4n1 Jap 6n1 Jap 12n2 Kingsmaille Persian 3n1 Persian 4n1 Dragonscale Jens Pind Linkage 3 Jens Pind Linkage 5 Jens Pind Linkage 7 Jens Pind Linkage 9+ Byzantine Hoodoo Roundmaille Captured Inverted Roundmaille P - PREFERED FORM OF MAILLE Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N14.12 Pj P[Type Code]=Pj (jewelery) Indicates your favorite form of maille Type List a = Armor c = Clothing d = Decorative works j = Jewelry n = no preference s = Sculpture t = trimmings & accessories w = Weaponry D - PROJECT TYPES DONE Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N14.12 Pj Dcejt D[Type Codes(s)]=Dcejt (clothing, equipment, jewelry and trimmings & accessories) Types of maille projects you have completed. Type List a = Armor c = Clothing d = Decorative works e = Equipment (Created tools/equipment to help make maille) j = Jewelry s = Sculpture t = trimmings & accessories w = Weaponry X- EXTRA CONTRIBUTIONS Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N14.12 Pj Dcejt Xa6g14 X(a[number])(g[number])(t[Number])(w[Number])=Xa6g14 (6 Articles, 14 Gallery Pictures, 0 Tutorials and 0 new Weaves) Please omit any catagory where you have made no submissions Catagory list a, articles submitted g, gallery pictures submitted t, tutorials submitted w, new weaves submitted S - STARTED MAILLING IN Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N14.12 Pj Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 S[YY]=S07 (2007) Started mailling in year (use 2 digits) CC - CONTRIBUTION TO THE CODE Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N14.12 Pj Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 CCc CC[Contribution Code]=CCc (Created the maille code) Bonus Code segment for those who have contributed, use the most relevant code for you level of contribution. Contribution List c = Created the maille code i = Submitted ideas for the maille code m = Multiple complete sections of maille code submited and used n = not yet contributed to the code p = Posted in the maille code thread s = Submitted a complete section of maille code u = One complete section of maille code submited and used Please do not use this version of the code until it is released for use, There may be changes that may cause confusion. Thanks to everyone who has used the code. And special thanks to all those who have contributed to the code. Maille Code V2.0 T5.4 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i C\$p G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N16.16 Pt Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 Hc Articles - Byzantine Speed Weaving - Poor Man's Tumbler - Ring Jig - Turk's Head Knot Ring - Wire Winding Maille - Belt - Choker w. Padlock - Collar - Collar with Twist - Cuffs - Cuff 2 - Decorative Chains - DS Belt - Maille Cuffs - Micro Ring - T Shirt - Vambrace - Watch Band - Watch Chain Non-maille - Ring - Ring Mk II

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

 Posted on Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:05 pm Link to Post: The E code - would you like to add the 'x', as already discussed in a parallel thread - for not expected (or not aimed at) commerciality? And would you please allow the possibility to combine entries here too, like 'Exo' for 'not aimed to be commercial, but it happens sometimes, if someone insists on getting a particular piece'. That 'Exo' would be a valid code for me at the moment... BTW: Would CCipu right for me, as I proposed the commerciality section if I remember right? -ZiLi- Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws\$ Cpbsw\$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip Human societies are like chain mail. A single link will be worth nothing. A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link. A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links. A strong weave will survive even with weak links included. -'me
anon

[ Grand Master Speaker ]

Joined: June 17, 2007
Posts: 532
Submissions: 21

 Posted on Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:55 am Link to Post: Thanks For E I decided to use n instead of x to make it easier to remember. or does n = non-commercial leave something out that you'd like covered? I'd prefer to keep it to one letter, if you really feel that neither o = occasional or n = non commercial cover you perhaps you could come up with another letter and description. For you I'd suggest CCu as it's the highest out of i, p and u. (CC uses only one following letter) And thanks for your contribution to the code. Maille Code V2.0 T5.4 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i C\$p G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N16.16 Pt Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 Hc Articles - Byzantine Speed Weaving - Poor Man's Tumbler - Ring Jig - Turk's Head Knot Ring - Wire Winding Maille - Belt - Choker w. Padlock - Collar - Collar with Twist - Cuffs - Cuff 2 - Decorative Chains - DS Belt - Maille Cuffs - Micro Ring - T Shirt - Vambrace - Watch Band - Watch Chain Non-maille - Ring - Ring Mk II

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

 Posted on Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:27 am Link to Post: OK, let's collect items I think it's worth thinking about. V: As long as there are not inbetween modifications of the code between main versions, the '.0' is superfluous - so why not use simply 'V2' ? T, and R: They work, so they don't need an overhaul. E: Here I'm a bit unsure, but I agree to your reasoning. But it should be clearly defined, whether it is asked for the actual or intended commercial status, as that can differ. My personal E code would be En if I was aked for intended status, but Eo if actual status is asked for. F: That basic list may suffice for the moment; additions can be added as needed -> THEN a modifier to V2 to V2.1... would be appropriate, imho. M: I would propose that ALL contents of the M field should be written in small letters, similar to the F field. This is to give the code the principal ability to be written without any separating spaces and to remain readable. For the user of the code it is clear, that (s)he is allowed to use separator spacing anyhow, to increase readability, but in this code version is not more forced to do so. W, C, G, I: these work 'as-is', and don't need changes, imho. N: The list model should be maybe re-thought - or alternatively the 100 weave list completed before releasing the code. I remain unconvinced, whether such a list makes sense here at all. P, and D: don't need changes - yes, I acknowledged the e,t,w additions to these code, and agree to them (and if asked for, I would allow t in the P field as well, just for consistency). X: should work as proposed, but should be clearly defined, that ALL publications, not only on mailleartisans are meant - be it in another forum, on own site, or elsewhere. Maybe even printed publications could find a place here - possibly we should think about about a possible notation to enable that, too. S: is self-explanatory, can remain unchanged. CC: I principally dislike to use a double letter field name, as it's somewhat against the consistency rules of the code. That might need to be re-thought imho, while it isn't easy to find a good letter that is not already used by other categories, I know. And I feel a bit unlucky about the list of possible entries - should only one be chosen, or should all entries valid for a user be noted here? In case of one only the list could need re-work, in case of combining several entries as well, but a re-work of the list seems to be necessary, anyhow. Or maybe the complete CC section is superfluous and should/could be deleted without replacement? And if it is really called for, it could be reinstated somewhen. At the moment, I thinkm about omitting that section in my personal code due to consistency shortcomings (and I really don't need it for dick comparison)... Sorry for some ranting, but I tried to collect my thoughts about the code here in one post as compact as possible. -ZiLi- Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws\$ Cpbsw\$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip Human societies are like chain mail. A single link will be worth nothing. A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link. A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links. A strong weave will survive even with weak links included. -'me
anon

[ Grand Master Speaker ]

Joined: June 17, 2007
Posts: 532
Submissions: 21

 Posted on Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:32 am Link to Post: V: I'm hoping to regularly update parts of the code (at least quarterly) Life Intruded between V1.0 and V2.0 that's why there wasn't a V1.1 etc. hopefully I'll be able to do a better job of maintaining it in future. Assuming that that holds true then there is (imo) a good reason for leaving the .0 E: Good point, perhaps the best solution is E - EARNING STATUS Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo.p E[Actual Earning Code].[Intended Earning Code]=Eo.p (occasional with hopes to become part-time) Earning code give an idea of the commercial role maille plays in the maker's life Earning Code List f = full-time, maille making is run as a full time business p = part-time, maille making is run as a part time business o = occasional, there is the occasional sale n = non commercial, maille is not sold for profit F: The only thing preventing more additions to the list is i'm not being asked to add things, ideally requests would be submitted and then added in each minor version jump. M: We've discussed this before and I don't think anything has changed, and the code is still decrypt-able without spaces as it can easily be worked out that the letter immediately after the first capital M is not the letter for the next section. G and I: Have been tweaked to make them conceptually easier to understand. saying 3 to 5 meters in length is easier to understand than 5 to 3 meters in length (imo) N: I'm hoping people will contribute to the list so it can be reasonably comprehensive before the official release of V2.0, if it's not working well then it can be modified in a minor upgrade. X: Yes, but the same submission to different sites etc should not be counted more than once. perhaps X- EXTRA CONTRIBUTIONS Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N14.12 Pj Dcejt Xa6g14 X(a[number])(g[number])(t[Number])(w[Number])=Xa6g14 (6 Articles, 14 Gallery Pictures, 0 Published, 0 Tutorials and 0 new Weaves) The number of contributions you have made to web-sites and publications, if the same material has been submitted to multiple sites please only count that as one submission. Please omit any category where you have made no submissions. Category list a, articles submitted to websites g, gallery pictures submitted to websites p, submissions published in publications other than web-sites t, tutorials submitted to websites w, new weaves submitted to websites CC: I agree about the double letter, initially it was a token thing to encourage people to contribute, perhaps H would be a better solution. In version 1.0 CC should not have been used unless the user had contributed, so most examples of the code should not have included CC anyway. H - HELPED CREATE MAILLE CODE BY I think simply pointing out your highest level of contribution gives people a good idea of what you've done to support the code. None of the Code is strictly mandatory, how much of it people use is up to them. If you don't want people to know you've contributed it's not going to adversely affect the information the code provides. Thanks again. Maille Code V2.0 T5.4 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i C\$p G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N16.16 Pt Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 Hc Articles - Byzantine Speed Weaving - Poor Man's Tumbler - Ring Jig - Turk's Head Knot Ring - Wire Winding Maille - Belt - Choker w. Padlock - Collar - Collar with Twist - Cuffs - Cuff 2 - Decorative Chains - DS Belt - Maille Cuffs - Micro Ring - T Shirt - Vambrace - Watch Band - Watch Chain Non-maille - Ring - Ring Mk II
Euar

[ Major Voice ]

Joined: February 06, 2006
Posts: 315
Submissions: 6
Location: Austin

 Posted on Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:16 am Link to Post: I surprised myself tonight as I started upgrading my mail code from V1 to V2 when I hit wire size in mm. I have been doing alot of work in metals this past year and have come to HATE mm in metal working for various reasons. I mean I really hate it, but before I went off the handle I decided to re-check v1 and I used mm there, tho I didn't like it .. I used it. Well I don't use it anymore, even at class I covert mm to gauge -AWG mostly for jewerly type and SWG for steel- and forget about mm and move on. So I went back and read V1 and 2 and all the comments.. noone, including me suggested a Gauge for 1 or 2. Really surprised me. So here's my suggestions; G - GAUGES OF WIRE USED Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es Gm0.5-1.5 G[Smallest Gauge Used]-[Largest Gauge Used]=G0.5-1.5 (from 0.5mm to 1.5mm) a=AWG s=SWG m=mm You can use http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=3373 if you need to convert to mm and http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-wire-gauge-d_731.html to convert to AWG I - RANGE OF INNER DIAMETERS USED Maille Code V2.0 T5.2 R4.5 Eo Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i Cp\$es Gm0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 I[Smallest ID used]/[Largest ID used]=I1.2-10.8 (from 1.2mm down to 10.8mm) a=AWG s=SWG m=mm You can use [url] http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=3373[/url] if you need to convert to mm and http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-wire-gauge-d_731.html to convert to awg
anon

[ Grand Master Speaker ]

Joined: June 17, 2007
Posts: 532
Submissions: 21

 Posted on Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:05 am Link to Post: thanks for the suggestion, but at the moment i still think converting to mm is the better way. you're welcome to keep trying to convince me, but before you do please consider, my way you only need to convert when you generate your code, your way every one who reads it needs to convert unless they regularly use that measurement ... Maille Code V2.0 T5.4 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i C\$p G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N16.16 Pt Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 Hc Articles - Byzantine Speed Weaving - Poor Man's Tumbler - Ring Jig - Turk's Head Knot Ring - Wire Winding Maille - Belt - Choker w. Padlock - Collar - Collar with Twist - Cuffs - Cuff 2 - Decorative Chains - DS Belt - Maille Cuffs - Micro Ring - T Shirt - Vambrace - Watch Band - Watch Chain Non-maille - Ring - Ring Mk II
Euar

[ Major Voice ]

Joined: February 06, 2006
Posts: 315
Submissions: 6
Location: Austin

 Posted on Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:33 pm Link to Post: hmm check again anon.. I listed all 3 .. mm AWG and SWG, noone need convert unless they choose to. I ,and others I am sure ,have to convert everytime they look at anyone elses "code". I even followed the format you used elsewhere. Btw, Gauge is a unit of measurement, same as inches or liters, saying "Gauges of Wire Used" and requiring mm is incorrect. It's not "gauge in inches" or "gauge in meters", it's gauge. Since even you continue to use the base language of "gauge" and you have a full use for other catagories, I see no reason not to include gauge. I know you have a bias against imperial, quite possibility as strong as mine against metric, however there IS a strong use of the imperial system everywhere and a strong use of metric, so I say both should be included. Even tho I hate metric, refusing to see that others use it and it has a practical value would be.. well pointless.
anon

[ Grand Master Speaker ]

Joined: June 17, 2007
Posts: 532
Submissions: 21

 Posted on Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:39 am Link to Post: I'd rather only use one system of measurement, Unless all four systems are used (in which case the code becomes quite long, and then 3 conversions are needed when creating the code, including the dreaded to metric) people reading the code will need to convert unless they understand the system used. By using only one system a quick comparison with your own code should quickly let most people know how the wire thicknesses and id's relate, though in hindsight ar's would probably have been more useful than id's. I don't have a particularly strong bias against imperial, but i feel metric is better suited for these purposes, (i think imperial is better when it comes to people visualising sizes between a centimeter and a meter for example). Please keep trying to convince me, or see if you can get others to post in support of your argument, if enough people want it changed i'll run a poll to find the prefered system. Maille Code V2.0 T5.4 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg\$i C\$p G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N16.16 Pt Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 Hc Articles - Byzantine Speed Weaving - Poor Man's Tumbler - Ring Jig - Turk's Head Knot Ring - Wire Winding Maille - Belt - Choker w. Padlock - Collar - Collar with Twist - Cuffs - Cuff 2 - Decorative Chains - DS Belt - Maille Cuffs - Micro Ring - T Shirt - Vambrace - Watch Band - Watch Chain Non-maille - Ring - Ring Mk II
Euar

[ Major Voice ]

Joined: February 06, 2006
Posts: 315
Submissions: 6
Location: Austin

 Posted on Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:57 am Link to Post: Good call .. so I went and checked .. I read all the 1st posts on the first page of the Gallery forum, from that I got 1 person that posted no stats 1 person that consistantly posts Both MM and Gauge - Nárrína - did not count her posts toward either mm or gauge. 10 post's that list MM 23 posts that list gauge as their primary. Conclusion- gauge method of wire measurement is the used approximately twice as much based on this sampling -Note that Derailed and Legba3 are both heavily represented in those counts- If one system is to be used .. I would have to suggest gauge. MM or inches being excluded. Actually, I would like to hear Nárrína's take on this....

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

 Posted on Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:51 am Link to Post: The major argument against gauge is simply: it's not precise. Gauges are yes/no devices for quick ESTIMATION of a thickness by deciding the thickness RANGE it falls in - is something smaller or larger than gauge x, or the next lesser or higher number? There aren't inbetween gauge numbers like e.g. 18.27 (in awg principally possible, but swg as irregular 'measurement' doesn't allow that at all). So metric or inch remain as only simple means to give precise numbers. And given the fact that metric is the internationally accepted norm (even officially in the U.S.!), and MAIL's principal self-given goal is to educate, and only some Anglo-Americans seem to show hesitance to convert due to simple laziness (or should I write PRIDE on a Jul4th?) I would like to see that G/I ruling remain metric (or alternatively decimal inch). And gauges and other redundant, illogical, and outdated units have caused not only maillers too many hassles when precise numbers were needed, so time should have come to convert... @Euar: That's not pointed against you personally (or Americans in general), but simply my opinion that has proven many times to be a valid one. But finally let decide the code's 'owner' - our job here is to consult him, and everyone of us is allowed to try to convince him of our personal opinions being valid. And I do NOT object against inches as alternate notation (that alternate notation idea is a notable one) - but I strongly oppose gauges personally, due to the precision argument mentioned above. And btw: I would dislike to give or see mixed dimensions for G and I - if you note gauges in G section, what do you chose for I??? -ZiLi- Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws\$ Cpbsw\$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip Human societies are like chain mail. A single link will be worth nothing. A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link. A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links. A strong weave will survive even with weak links included. -'me
Nárrína

[ Ancient Forge ]

Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 2278
Submissions: 97
Location: Standish, Michigan, USA

Posted on Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:24 pm || Last edited by Nárrína on Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
Link to Post:

 Euar wrote: Good call .. so I went and checked .. I read all the 1st posts on the first page of the Gallery forum, from that I got 1 person that posted no stats 1 person that consistantly posts Both MM and Gauge - Nárrína - did not count her posts toward either mm or gauge. 10 post's that list MM 23 posts that list gauge as their primary. Conclusion- gauge method of wire measurement is the used approximately twice as much based on this sampling -Note that Derailed and Legba3 are both heavily represented in those counts- If one system is to be used .. I would have to suggest gauge. MM or inches being excluded. Actually, I would like to hear Nárrína's take on this....

I'm kind of in between on this. I use both gauge and mm because it gives more information regarding the stats of my work.

In regards to ring sizes I prefer mm because most of the times we work in rings that are quite small and mm are a lot easier to follow than inches. But when it comes to the width of the wire I generally prefer gauges rather some ridiculously long decimal.

To me, the problem with using inches or mm for the wire gauge portion of the code is that we are still having to give approximate wire sizes as just about all of the wire gauges go into four or five decimal points and we are only using two of them for the code. Yet with gauges there is the problem that some people use SWG and others AWG and some of us have possible even used both (I know I have, as while back I had two spools of 16ga wire and there was a noticeable size difference between them).

If it has to be either inches or mm, I'd prefer mm. However, I actually have to agree with Euar on this that it might be best to go with gauges and then specify AWG or SWG. I say this partly because when buying wire they don't ask you what mm thickness wire you want, but what wire gauge it is you want to buy. In fact, a lot of wire spools only mention the wire gauge and completely skip the actual thickness in inches or mm (with the exception of wire bought at hardware stores).

As a side note: I use both the English/Imperial system of measurements and metric system almost interchangeably as I was raised with both, having lived in Ireland and the U.S. for almost equal amounts of time. If I'm dealing with small numbers such as ring ID I use metric as it will be more exact and it gives a better visual than giving the size in a fraction of an inch. However, if I'm having to deal with how much wire I need for a project I use the English system instead as in that case it's easier to use feet rather than meters.

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Euar

[ Major Voice ]

Joined: February 06, 2006
Posts: 315
Submissions: 6
Location: Austin

 Posted on Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:29 pm Link to Post: Heh, pride Zili? leave that for the makers of the metric system. There is something -I know what it is- that keeps the old imperial system around, and it's not pride, laziness, or pure stubbornness. If you want those, check metric, it has them in abundance. Metric was designed in a lab, with direct relationships between the systems, heat, volume, density, and mass. Also with a bias toward lab work, take the baseline weight -yes I know its not based on weight but we can discuss that later- of grams, except for drug dealers, and lab techs, who uses grams? The imperial system on the other hand was designed/found with a natural bent. It was what was on hand at the time. Yards, pounds, BTU, ounce, gauge, are not as precise perhaps as metric, and yet, for what was/is needed, far more useful. Gauge for example is a unit of length x a unit of weight, example 5lbs of alum at 100ft length and an expected uniform size would be X gauge. When the density of the material changes in the slightest the weight will change or the length and that will throw off the gauge. Metric on the other hand is far more precise and totally flawed in this area, it includes NO real world calculations except size. Gauge naturally adjusts for the density changes that occur, metric will tell you the exact size of a sheet or wire but doesn't include any control over the material. Now these days I know that the metric crowd, with their bigotry toward imperial and their short sightedness in the lab, think that imperial should just die. The laugh is on them. All you have to do is ask them to take ANYTHING, and cut it down the middle and see what they get, Answer 2 halves. Imperial = halves.. metric = .5, it really is that simple. Until a system that includes the natural world -and no you got 8 fingers not 10- with the lab usefulness -going from liters to calories to grams is SO easy in metric- both systems will continue to exist, in NO harmony of course, but exist they both shall.

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
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Location: Germany, Herxheim

 Posted on Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:11 pm Link to Post: Euar, you may have misread my remarks about gauges and imperial vs. metric. I am NOT against use of imperial system - as long as their units are distinct, with one of its kind, and easily convertable to any unit you wish. So I only want to part with the abundance of the redundant and non-convertible (by calculation with a formula) ones. And so SWG is a unit I strongly object against using anymore, as it does NOT allow to state precise inbetween sizes, or numeric calculation of the associated size to e.g. inches - you need tables to do look up data, and vice-versa is impossible at all. Example: 0.05" is precisely 1.27mm, but as gauge that is? Between 16 and 17AWG (what is numerically even calculable to ~16.2AWG), or between 17 and 18swg - but this time no possibility to give a precise number due to the irregular scale pitch of swg. And isn't it a fact, that many maillers acquired e.g. '16ga' wire - to notice differences to other 16ga wires they already had, and promptly ran into problems when they weren't able to achieve a ring AR a particular weave demanded? I'm only about one year around here, but I read about these problems frequently, and much more often the demand of repliers for more precise data when someone posted (s)he used "x ga wire". So I repeat: Imperial units yes, but only the distinct and not outdated ones. And that is not a question of pride - it's one of practicability. And yes: I HATE laziness declared as pride. BTW: Another note about pride: SWG is an originally BRITISH unit, that has been officially withdrawn by them in the meanwhile - and the Americans stubbornly continue to use it despite having an own, MUCH less illogical variant of... Happy July 4th... -ZiLi- Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws\$ Cpbsw\$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip Human societies are like chain mail. A single link will be worth nothing. A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link. A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links. A strong weave will survive even with weak links included. -'me
Euar

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Joined: February 06, 2006
Posts: 315
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Location: Austin

Posted on Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:00 am
Link to Post:

Ok Zili; Now that one is gonna call for a clarification .. yup I am asking for it ..
 Quote: BTW: Another note about pride: SWG is an originally BRITISH unit, that has been officially withdrawn by them in the meanwhile - and the Americans stubbornly continue to use it despite having an own, MUCH less illogical variant of... Happy July 4th...

AWG? .. I use SWG because it's what sheet steel is sold in. I understand about the British begining and using SWG, even withdrawing it .. ok .. however, I have no knowledge of the difference you speak of.
Please, if you would, explain?

Oh and thanks, it's has been a nice 4th .. fireworks and BBQ sausage and shrimp, jalapeno pepper stuffed with cream cheese and bacon wrapped! .. Tasty.

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