Crotalus
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Posted on Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:26 pm
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Other than the 2nd and 4th column rings being flipped they seem to be the same weave.
)
( <-- 2nd
)
( <-- 4th
)

As for what I mean by flipped, they seem to have the same connections. It's just that it differs in whether the 2nd or 4th ring is on top. Hope that makes some sense.


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Posted on Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:28 pm
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Beryc wrote:
Other than the 2nd and 4th column rings being flipped they seem to be the same weave.
)
( <-- 2nd
)
( <-- 4th
)

As for what I mean by flipped, they seem to have the same connections. It's just that it differs in whether the 2nd or 4th ring is on top. Hope that makes some sense.


That's why I think it's just showing the top of the weave in Cobra, and the bottom of the weave in Crotalus (or vice versa, it doesn't really matter). I think if you flipped one of them over it'd look like the other one.

-phong



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Posted on Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:24 pm
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Well done Beryc, I've been sat here trying to work out how to explain what I think the differences are and you just did it, thanks. Smile

Like Phong says we could do with another pic of Cobra.


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Posted on Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:51 pm
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Yeah, I took another look at the Crotalus patch I made, and it is (trivially) different than Cobra.

I can sleep soundly tonight.

-phong



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Posted on Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:38 pm
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hmm... I could send another photo, but take my word, both sides are the same. In my humble opinion that's the "lean" of the weave.

If you take a chain of Cobra/Crotalus and lay it flat, you'll notice it can be bent easily into the "left" (or "right"), but not in the other direction... guess it's because of the combination of the 1&5 stacking direction and the 2&4 connection (2 being "above" or "below" 4).

So Cobra will bend easily in one direction, Crotalus in the other. It's like having a different name for HP3-1 leaning left and right. Same weave to me.

DISCLAIMER: All of the above is written about the chain version of the weave(s). I know nothing about the patch connection methods, since I've never tried it.


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Posted on Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:02 pm
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Oh I have made some close relative maybe interesting for Viperscale & Crotalus fans.
First the image, then the explanation...

This is a HP3S6 strip, woven GSG style, biased, and two and a half rows wide...

Have fun
-ZiLi-


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Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
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Posted on Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:46 pm
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I like that weave/varient, ZiLi! Very interesting.

Phong wrote:

That's why I think it's just showing the top of the weave in Cobra, and the bottom of the weave in Crotalus (or vice versa, it doesn't really matter). I think if you flipped one of them over it'd look like the other one.

-phong


Nope, still different. Whatever direction you flip Crotalus every direction still has at least one ring flipped in the opposite direction than in Cobra. No matter which way you flip Cortalus the 2nd and 4th column rings are always oriented differently than in Cobra, even when you flip it so that the same rings are on top and on bottom as in Cobra they are then going the opposite direction than in Cobra.

The 3rd column of rings is also different in Crotalus than in Cobra. In Cobra, this row of rings lies on top of the 1st and 5th rows of rings as it connects to them through the back of the rings. In Crotalus, these rings go underneath the 1st and 5th rows of rings because they are connecting through the top of those rings. Also in Cobra the 3rd row of rings goes around the intersection of the 1st/2nd and 4th/5th rows rather than going through these intersections as the 3rd row of rings does in Crotalus.

I hope this makes sense!



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We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

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Posted on Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:59 pm
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Nárrína wrote:

Also in Cobra the 3rd row of rings goes around the intersection of the 1st/2nd and 4th/5th rows rather than going through these intersections as the 3rd row of rings does in Crotalus.


Nope... In both weaves the "3rd" (middle) rings do go through the intersection (TE)... I've compared both tuts (Tesserex's Cobra and Legba3's Crotalus) and it's positively through (pardon for a weak pun of a guy who's not a native english-speaker).

Nárrína wrote:

The 3rd column of rings is also different in Crotalus than in Cobra. In Cobra, this row of rings lies on top of the 1st and 5th rows of rings as it connects to them through the back of the rings. In Crotalus, these rings go underneath the 1st and 5th rows of rings because they are connecting through the top of those rings.


... and that calls for an illustration. Don't see the difference you write about, since all the connections are the same. But maybe I'm wrong.

Nárrína wrote:


Whatever direction you flip Crotalus every direction still has at least one ring flipped in the opposite direction than in Cobra. No matter which way you flip Cortalus the 2nd and 4th column rings are always oriented differently than in Cobra, even when you flip it so that the same rings are on top and on bottom as in Cobra they are then going the opposite direction than in Cobra.


Yep, that's the "lean" thing I was talking about...


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Posted on Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:05 pm
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Well considering Narrina came up with the weave Crotalus, she's going to know how it's put together. I'm now thinking my tut may be wrong. Narrina will you please check it out.


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Posted on Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:11 am
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ZiLi wrote:
Oh I have made some close relative maybe interesting for Viperscale & Crotalus fans.
First the image, then the explanation...

This is a HP3S6 strip, woven GSG style, biased, and two and a half rows wide...

Have fun
-ZiLi-


Well now that is interesting...but I'm lost after HP3S...

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Posted on Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:44 am
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Carys wrote:
Well now that is interesting...but I'm lost after HP3S...


Look into the tut provided by me in the articles section - Biased HP3-1S6 Chains - A Simple Method. Shown there is a four-row example (alternating four and four rings). Just leave one and a half rows (3 rings) away at one side to get the 1 1/2 row version that features alternating two and three rings. Hope that explanation helps. BTW: I used relatively springy Stainless 1mm, wound on 4mm mandrel, giving an effective AR of ~4.6 after springback. But be cautious: That's near the low AR limit of that weave - if woven any wider, increase the (real) AR to around 5.0 or even a little above.

-ZiLi-


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Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

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Posted on Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:59 am
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After seeing GawthFrawg's crotalus necklace, I had to go and search for it. After using your tut Legba, I noticed that if you were to chunk off a couple rows you'd get another weave I remember seeing but can't find... I'll try and explain that one more later.

Anyway, long story short, I used the search feature again and started looking up threads to see if anyone had posted a 'crotalus thread' and like most weave threads people would suggest similar ones. Tada, here's this thread.

After reading through it, I have to side with the 'cobra and crotalus are the same' side of the debate, after looking intensely at what I made, seeing this thread, and looking at the two pictures. The pictures of the weaves aren't quite the same. The connections however are exactly the same. you can see the pattern if you have a chain of one (lets say crotalus) that chain and its connections will appear in both sheet weaves. It took quite a while of looking, but both pictures have a bit of 'frills' on the side of them that confuse the issue.

There is also this: http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/subcat.cgi?key=6419 which DOES have 1 slight connection difference. the difference being exactly what you're talking about with one set of rings being 'on top' rather than 'on bottom' even though those are not great terms for this particular weave :-p

I'll try and see if I can't make pictures (possibly with the aid of the ones that already exist) and put em back up to explain what I mean and what I see... If in doing that I discover I am in fact wrong and I've seen something that doesn't exist then I will retreat hastily, claim I never said any of that stuff and call you all liars for saying I did :-p

EDIT: afterthought: Regardless of 'same weave' or not, it's a beautiful weave that everyone should go learn if they don't already know it :]

EDIT2: before heading to bed, and after that last edit, I fiddled a bit and developed a new variation as well that I will take pictures of and dub 'Castanet' Perhaps I'll come up with a better color scheme for it too so it'll be easier to see what's going on. Additionally: it takes a much larger AR for this variation (I used 16g 3/8" rings and it's pretty dense)

also left out of the last post/edit: Legba, <3 the tut thanks :]


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Posted on Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:04 pm
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Similar, yes. Same, no.

There is a more than simply a difference in handedness between these two weaves. While the rings my connected through the same rings the quadrant of the intersections are different and is what causes the differences that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts (which I posted while holding and closely examining one of my Crotalus bracelets). The pattern may seem the same but the orientation of the rings is different.



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Posted on Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:48 pm
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ok here's the pictures I promised. The only difference between crotalus chain and crotalus sheet is of course that you extend the rings connecting into one another width wise rather than lengthwise.

This weave is at it's basics European 4 in 1. The difference is that each row of rings leaning left connects into the adjacent ring in the adjacent left leaning rows. The same is true of the right leaning rings.

Of course for this to lie flat, the rings need to alternate which ones are 'on top'

I have taken the pictures from this site and highlighted areas where all these weaves are exactly the same. The reason why they may look different is because the 'crotalus sheet' and the 'cobra sheet' have been started in a different place in the weave. I'm putting an example down first before the pictures. I will number 'columns' and 'rows' in the examples In essence you have this:

#-1234
1-abcd
2-bcda
3-abcd
4-bcda
5-abcd

in one of them and this:
#-1234
1-cdba
2-bcda
3-cdab
4-bcda
5-cdab

in the other. This means that the weave is only 'indexed' a row or two in a direction, creating the illusion that it is different. the difference between these two is that column 1 in the first set of letters becomes column 4 in the second, and row 1 becomes row 5. These two simple changes make the order look completely different.

Now the pictures:


Crotalus chain the 'light green' and 'light blue' rings go under the dark color rings. A 'dark green' one has the 'dark blue' one to the north of the image with the 'light blue' one to the south.


Crotalus sheet I colored the same pattern and the same amount of rings, notice in the 'red circle' to the north of the image you have the 'extra' row that exists as a piece of the weave, but not the complete Crotalus chain. The same is true for anything in the red to the south, even though the chain pattern can be found several more times.


Cobra The same pattern exists, again I have circled the 'fluff' that is really part of the same chain weave, just not a complete pattern (if you were to continue the sheet an extra couple rows you could see the chain pattern again)

These ARE the same weaves they're just done with 'extra rows' that don't finish another 'complete' segment of the pattern. I could construct both weaves exactly using Legba's tutorial and they would come out the same. There is not any difference with 'leaning' or 'handedness,' they are the same.

It is confusing because the pattern is a band, and a decently complex band. There are 4 rows in the chain, 5 makes it symmetrical and perty :]

consider the rows like this:

1- dark blue
2- dark green
3- light blue
4- light green

What you have in the 'crotalus sheet' picture is an additional row of light green (shown by my coloring)' 'light blue(not shown by my coloring)' on top of the pattern. Whereas the 'cobra' picture has the 'light green(shown),' 'light blue(not shown)' and 'dark green(not shown)' added to the top.

I HOPE I made some kind of sense here.


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Posted on Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:03 pm
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Umm, Gnome, one problem with your drawing out the ring connections. When I submitted them that I accidentally had them going in the opposite directions. The red 'fringe' rings do actually complete the Crotalus chain I just wasn't paying careful attention when I took the pics. (Which I have now correct and will be more careful of in the future as this is not the first time I've done this.)

Below is the corrected weave orientation of the pics, they are now going in the same direction. This should show more clearly that the outer rings of Crotalus Sheet do actually finish the weave. (Apologies for not be careful enough when I took the pics and for confusing people.)







Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

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