Amendments to Theme Contest Rules (Discussion)
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Joined: August 02, 2005
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Posted on Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:01 pm
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When we first started this, I don't think any of it was intended to be strict, just as basic guidelines. On my part, I'm not trying to be some kind of rule control freak with it.

I think what AdrianHills said about "mostly maille, over half maille or predominately maille" is the best way to put it, not a percentage. The percentage thing causes a lot of trouble. I like the idea of the maille having to be the vast majority of the piece, since it is a chainmaille based contest. With that said, I think the piece overall should be judged, not just the maille aspect of it.

For anyone interested, this is the original thread about the theme contests, started in December of 2006 by beeslayer. Deidre later took over, then I got it. Here's the thread:
http://mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=8419&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


Discussion of what percentage of maille should be there begins on the second page, as does whether or not previously made pieces shouled be allowed in.

Her'es the discussion from the Admin forum about it when it was still being hammered out. Just posting as a reference type of thing in case anybody wanted to see.
http://mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?p=115026&highlight=#115026

This is the thread from the first theme contest of Technology. The "rules" are in beeslayer's first post.
http://mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=8581&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

This thread of voting for the second theme has all the rules that were originally decided on in it in the first post:
http://mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?p=119233&highlight=#119233

This thread has a discussion in it pertaining to ties, another thing in the rules we haven't discussed too much.
http://mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=9280&highlight=theme

There was a question in our current contest about people coming up with ideas and someone else making the piece. That was discussed/decided on the last post on the first page/first post on the second page:
http://mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=9345&highlight=theme

Sorry it's such a long post. I'll go dig through some more old posts later, I've got a Design project to do right now.


I'll rise, but I won't shine.

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

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Posted on Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:20 pm
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I'd like to second Druid Queen's opinions told in the 4-18/16:11h post.

And I would vote for a 2/3 maille rule. But I would like to disagree with opinions, that EVERY ring for that project has to be woven in a contest's time frame - many maillers simply don't want (or dont have the time reserves) to devote much time in a maybe large piece, if it's their idea to submit a large one. So I'm for some rule relaxation in this regard. Simply commit the submitters to tell on submission which contest rules were disregarded or 'bent' by what amount and why, and let the voters (and not some rule makers) decide if that's a valid excuse...

Maybe I should base my agreement to DQs proposal by some remarks I already uttered to Legba in a PM about MAIL's weave database and 'non-standard' weaves... @Legba: Should I? Or should that be done in a separate thread?

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: August 02, 2005
Posts: 1894
Submissions: 14
Location: Arnett, Oklahoma

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Posted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:48 am
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4-18/16:11h?

Huh?


I'll rise, but I won't shine.

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
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Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:31 am
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if the contests are going to be a regular fixture, what about an official contests page?

description of current contest, or link to the voting on either end of the process.

basic contest guidelines (rules, time frames, voting, ties, anything else someone might want to know about regarding contests.)

links to these historical discussions, as well as the various threads for each contest and the winning submission. might be nice to be able to view all of the contest submissions relatively easily.

could be written and submitted as an article, for easy updating.

as far as the rules go... i like the idea of loose and general as opposed to tight and strict. i kind of like the idea of documenting, by photo, any "significant work" made outside the time frame.

my intention was not to push people into rule making. my intention was to make sure that if submissions get disqualified, it is on a consistent basis.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: March 20, 2008
Posts: 2009
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Posted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:21 am
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I just wnated to say I agree with Kim on this one, it has to be constant.
Not so long ago I walked into a restaurant, with a sign on the door that read "No shirt, No shoes,No Service" well they served some guy in flip flops, meanwhile they made a big deal and threw me out for taking off my pants at the table. (where is the justice?) Laughing

Joined: May 07, 2008
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Location: Germany, Herxheim

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Posted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:31 am
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DruidQueen wrote:
4-18/16:11h? Huh?


Oh sorry - must have had a 'blackout' how to link to a certain post inside a thread, and didn't notice that time stamps are shown locally based on the time zone one choses to set in the personal profile... Meant THAT one...

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: August 02, 2005
Posts: 1894
Submissions: 14
Location: Arnett, Oklahoma

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Posted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:57 pm
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Ah, okay, thanks.

I could go for more like a 3/4 or even 2/3 maille rule. I just don't want this to go too much away from being a "maille" contest. In one of the posts in the threads I linked to, during the process of the original hammering out of rules, the reason such a steep percentage was put was because pieces were being turned down for the gallery because they were more non-maille than actual maille. At least, that's as far as I understood it.

On stuff being previously unsubmitted, the founders wanted new pieces that hadn't been in the gallery forever. It was meant to inspire creativeness, not to just pull a link from a pic that had been around 3 years. That's where that came from. Once again, not saying that it must remain this way.

Once we get the rules hammered out, I'll write an article or whatever with everything in it, post it here for proofreading, and submit it. Then for each thread pertaining to the contest, I'll link to it. Sound good to all?


I'll rise, but I won't shine.

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

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Posted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:16 pm
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@DQ, but others as well: By definition MAIL is devoted to the ADVANCEMENT of maille as artform - see the header, and memorize it - I recommend that for EVERY mailler who takes part in MAIL. MAIL's task is NOT to conserve old limitations that seem un-necesary for many of us fellow maillers, as I believe to know.

And as my personal definition of maille is based on the technique of mailleing and not on the materials used, I am always in for some deregulation. And so I tend to allow even unusual materials, material forms and dimensions, as long as the basic technique of mailleing is used to work with them. And that should (imho) be the basic rule for contests as well - amended by necessary regulations for a particular contest to be defined when starting a new one. Not more, not less.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: August 02, 2005
Posts: 1894
Submissions: 14
Location: Arnett, Oklahoma

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Posted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:25 pm
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ZiLi, I know what the header of MAIL says. I never said anything about wanting to limit people's creativity. What gave you that idea? I'm as open to non-traditional materials as the next guy. I've made maille from some fairly stupid/random things (pipe cleaners, plastic bracelets, crocheted rings, etc.) However, my personal opinion is that since this is a MAILLE theme contest, the vast majority (90%) of the submission should be chainmaille. Since I am only the coodrinator of the contest, and not the only voice/opinion in it, the rules have been opened up for amendments. That's what this thread is for. That's why I'm doing the same as everybody else, with the "give and take" thing going on. Read my last post, saying that I would be good with 75% maille, or even okay with 2/3 maille. I'm not trying to "cramp anybody's style" as it were.


I'll rise, but I won't shine.

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

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Posted on Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:38 pm
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Oh sorry that it sounded as if I had mentioned you were over-conservative. But that was NOT my intention to say - Just look, what post I seconded. And I know for sure, that too much regulation hinders progress.

I intended to see the discussion running in a direction that is near your opinions - with some exceptions, yes, but the general direction you took seems to be 'compatible enough' with my opinions to base a workable regulation upon.

-ziLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:44 am
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the problem i see with any percentage is it needs to be enforcable.

how do you make any enforcable percentage without a host of supplementary rules and descriptions of area vs. weight vs. hours of labor based on the materials being compared.

bureaucracy blech.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: October 21, 2008
Posts: 740
Submissions: 1
Location: Virginia

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Posted on Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:54 am
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DruidQueen wrote:
When we first started this, I don't think any of it was intended to be strict, just as basic guidelines. On my part, I'm not trying to be some kind of rule control freak with it.

I think what AdrianHills said about "mostly maille, over half maille or predominately maille" is the best way to put it, not a percentage. The percentage thing causes a lot of trouble. I like the idea of the maille having to be the vast majority of the piece, since it is a chainmaille based contest. With that said, I think the piece overall should be judged, not just the maille aspect of it.


I agree. I think over half maille and a paragraph about the intent of this rule would be best. I agree with Kim that a percentage is hard to judge and enforce, and even mostly maille etc might have different meanings to different people.

I don't think there needs to be specific kinda control freak rules. but I also think whatever rules there are need to be clear--or if vague, stated that they are intentionally vague and are only guidelines. I just don't want anyone else to go through another great controversy over interpretations of rules.

I think the rule "previously unsubmitted work" should be included...for the reasons you have given. That is a very standard rule for every contest (art, writing) I have seen.

I am still not certain what should be defined as "maille" for the purposes of the contest. I think it should be a broad definition to encourage creativity. I have only been here 6 months but I have already seen many threads with long-timers discussing "what is maille" and can't agree.

Joined: December 22, 2007
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Posted on Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:44 pm
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I propose that the rules be stated and then followed by a short explanation of why that rule exists. Here is an example of what I mean. This is an example only. I am not dictating that this is the only way it should be.

1. Entries must be 90% maille.
Because this is a site devoted to everything maille we ask that all entries consist mostly of maille. Beads, ribbon, stuffed animals, duct tape, whatever else you wish to use are fine as long as most of your entry is maille. Of course no one is going to get out their calipers or a scale and test your entry to see if it qualifies. We are a trusting bunch of people.

2. Entries must be previously unsubmitted work.
We have lots of pictures here on MAIL of lots of beautiful maille. Your entry should be something we have never seen before so that we can add even more pictures of even more beautiful maille.

3. Entries must be made within the time frame of the contest.
We would like to encourage creativity with these contests. Part of the creative process is the actual weaving of the maille. We ask that you submit only entries that you conceived and made specifically for the contest between the time the contest opens and closes. Again, the rules police will not be knocking on your door to enforce this. We trust you.

4. You are allowed as many entries as you like.
If fact, we encourage you to enter multiple submissions. We love to look at pretty pictures of maille.

5. Post a picture of your entry in the appropriate thread before the end of the contest.
We have to be able to see it to vote on it.

6. The contest runs for 12 weeks.
Plenty of time to come up with an idea, weave it, and take a picture.

7. Entries must have some connection to the stated theme of the contest.
This rule is the one you should have the most fun interpreting. Be creative, funny (or punny), and think outside the box.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: August 02, 2005
Posts: 1894
Submissions: 14
Location: Arnett, Oklahoma

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Posted on Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:10 pm
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Sorry, ZiLi, I was having a horrible day yesterday, didn't mean to take it out on here.

I agree with lorraine's post that directly precedes this one 100%.

The only two things that I think are major problems are:
Define "maille".
Define "made within the contest time".

Basically, do scales, coke tabs, rubber rings/onion rings/donuts woven in maille weaves count as maille?

The second one has a similar problem: Completely woven in the time frame, no scraps from other projects allowed...OR...Scraps from old projects are good as long as they are being used in this new project that's being constructed in the time period.


I'll rise, but I won't shine.

Joined: April 02, 2008
Posts: 2275
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Posted on Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:48 pm
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I like the idea of bringing down the % a little. Looking at the last contest there were some beautiful pieces and some people used a "pre-fab" barrete or piece of sheet copper to attach their maille to. In some cases this could be considered almost 10% of the piece.

If we are going to keep to the % either previously made or non-maille we should have it stated in the voting thread. I will admit I sometimes look at the whole piece and forget the % thing. Voting, while maille related should be about the look entire piece. Or am I really off in left field?

I think we should allow rubber rings, pop tabs etc. as long as it is used within the weave appropriately. I remember someone doing some E 4-1 with dried orange rinds last year. Now suppose our next contest is fruit/veggie maille. Would this be allowed?


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

MailleCode V2.0 T5.3 R4.4 E0.0 Feur MFe.sBr Wg Cwb G.7-5.1 I3.1-11 N20.5 Pj Dcdjt Xa1w2 S08

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