Persian Dragonscale Sheet attempt
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Joined: April 02, 2008
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Re: Persian Dragonscale (image count warning)
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Posted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:50 pm
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Elemental Dragon wrote:
On the subject of Persian Dragonscale.

MusicMan, I have come up with a sheetable form of PDS as a result of this discussion here.


I love it!! That is what I was trying to do when I started out but couldn't figure it out. I can't wait to try it out. What stats did you come up with?

Elemental Dragon wrote:
How do you want to handle this?


I have no problems with it, you created it and should get the credit, if that is what your quandary is about. I am sure that there have been plenty of other times when discussions have lead to new weaves. It doesn't mean, in my mind, that the creator of the thread/idea should get credit they just got everybody thinking in a different direction. I am just glad to see that it can be accomplished the way I first saw it in my mind. Just because I gave up on that version and took it another direction doesn't mean you didn't create it. (If that isn't what your quandary was about you will have to tell me, I have been listening to beginning band students all day and I mind is mush.)



Elemental Dragon wrote:
On the inline image subject.

Going from the post in which MusicMan has an end view, a side view, and a worn view, using the end view link.

The HTML link:
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2715212190103352590QXAuaw

From there, there is a little toolbar just under the photo, the rightmost of which has a tooltip of "copy the code to post this photo in a forum". I clicked on it.

I don't much see the point of trying to dig for direct image links when the host site provides tools for doing what is necessary. Not unless I'm curious, anyway Smile


Thanks I had never seen that one before. I guess it just means I should look at the programs/websites I am using a little closer and get to know their features. I will use it next time I post a picture. Thanks Smile


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

MailleCode V2.0 T5.3 R4.4 E0.0 Feur MFe.sBr Wg Cwb G.7-5.1 I3.1-11 N20.5 Pj Dcdjt Xa1w2 S08

Joined: August 14, 2006
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Re: Persian Dragonscale (image count warning)
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Posted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:54 pm
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MusicMan wrote:
Elemental Dragon wrote:
On the subject of Persian Dragonscale.

MusicMan, I have come up with a sheetable form of PDS as a result of this discussion here.


I love it!! That is what I was trying to do when I started out but couldn't figure it out. I can't wait to try it out. What stats did you come up with?


That particular patch has .081" wire (14SWG galvanized, 12AWG copper) in 3/8" and 1/2" IDs. Very flexible, almost more loose than I like, so the ARs could be tweaked a bit. With a large enough AR you probably could do a single AR. I just wanted to make sure I had large enough ARs to construct my idea.

MusicMan wrote:

Elemental Dragon wrote:
How do you want to handle this?


I have no problems with it, you created it and should get the credit, if that is what your quandary is about. I am sure that there have been plenty of other times when discussions have lead to new weaves. It doesn't mean, in my mind, that the creator of the thread/idea should get credit they just got everybody thinking in a different direction. I am just glad to see that it can be accomplished the way I first saw it in my mind. Just because I gave up on that version and took it another direction doesn't mean you didn't create it. (If that isn't what your quandary was about you will have to tell me, I have been listening to beginning band students all day and I mind is mush.)


Well, I kind of figured you would probably say something along those lines, but I've seen some very proprietary comments made by people and I just wanted to make sure. Never hurts to ask. Smile

As little bit of a side note, Dragonback can also be done the same way. It wasn't part of the initial discussion so I didn't feel quite as awkward about submitting it. Smile

MusicMan wrote:

Elemental Dragon wrote:

From there, there is a little toolbar just under the photo, the rightmost of which has a tooltip of "copy the code to post this photo in a forum". I clicked on it.


Thanks I had never seen that one before. I guess it just means I should look at the programs/websites I am using a little closer and get to know their features. I will use it next time I post a picture. Thanks Smile


You're welcome. Glad to help Smile I didn't know it was there until I went looking at things after Cynake's explanation for his edit Smile


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

Joined: August 12, 2008
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Location: Ketchikan, Alaska

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Posted on Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:13 am
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Cynake wrote:
I don't know if I'd call it a weave at all, chain or otherwise. Just looks like you have a neat seam or edge, and then stacked two edges close to each other.


This thread has had quite a bit of maille theory. I really enjoy that.

Now I'm just curious and not trying to be argumentative-
Cynake, what do you consider a weave to be?
Can seams and edges not be weaves?
Is HP3in1 a weave?

I know there's been much debate over 'what's a weave' in the past, and I have a feeling that much of the dissent is rooted in the fact that even though maille is a very old craft, the need for a cohesive lexicon has only recently been born out of forums like these, and it is through the process of having disscussions such as this, that a lexicon will eventually emerge. In fact, I see this topic - the need for a cohesive language of mailling - as the most crucial next-step in the development of mailling as a... a.... thing, unto itself.

We're talking about evolution, here. I think it's essential that we are all on the same linguistic page. Not that I want to make your ideas mine or make my ideas yours or anyone else's or anything like that. But the more we talk about definitions or theories, the more we will find a natural lexicon emerging. And I think we're at a point where we really need it.


Maille Code V1.0 T5.1 R3.6 Feur MAg.t Wcmi Cjwc G2.0/0.6 I38.1/2.5 Pj Dj S99 CCips

Joined: August 14, 2006
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Location: McPherson, Kansas

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Posted on Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:56 pm
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Yeah, "What is a weave" gets asked every so often by somebody or other.

Tesserex wrote a pretty good article, Definitions of Weave Terms, and there is a link in the Glossary entry for weave has a link to the discussion 'weave' definition started by David_Austin. The discussion has kind of petered out (getting close to two years since the last post was made in it Smile), but it's still there just waiting for fresh input. I will admit that some of my views and perceptions of what a weave is and isn't has had some rethinking.


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

Joined: August 10, 2005
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Posted on Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:17 pm
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Talia wrote:

Now I'm just curious and not trying to be argumentative-
Cynake, what do you consider a weave to be?


Uh oh don't get him started!

MusicMan - I think you should still submit your expanded PDS chain.


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V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: August 12, 2008
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Posted on Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:12 am
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Legba3 wrote:
MusicMan - I think you should still submit your expanded PDS chain.

I second this!

ED- Diggin' your take on the sheets (corrugations Razz ). I especially appreciate how clearly exlpained they are and your use of different metals to help see what's going on. Nicely done!


Maille Code V1.0 T5.1 R3.6 Feur MAg.t Wcmi Cjwc G2.0/0.6 I38.1/2.5 Pj Dj S99 CCips

Joined: August 14, 2006
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Posted on Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:13 pm
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Talia wrote:
ED- Diggin' your take on the sheets (corrugations Razz ). I especially appreciate how clearly exlpained they are and your use of different metals to help see what's going on. Nicely done!


Yeah, I figure it's easier for me to figure out using two different colors, so may be some other people will benefit from it as well Smile


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

Joined: April 02, 2008
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Posted on Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:14 pm
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Legba3 wrote:


MusicMan - I think you should still submit your expanded PDS chain.


I finally took a semi-respectable picture of it so when I get the time I will submit it. Thank you!


I would like to say thank you to all of you who participated in this discussion. This has been a great learning and discovering experience for me, your expertise and encouragement is what makes this MAIL community so rich, and it has helped me grow greatly an artist. The best thing from this is ED actually figured out how to create a PDS Sheet as well as some other sheets by Talia. I can't wait to try them out! Again, Thank you.

Sincerely,
MusicMan


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

MailleCode V2.0 T5.3 R4.4 E0.0 Feur MFe.sBr Wg Cwb G.7-5.1 I3.1-11 N20.5 Pj Dcdjt Xa1w2 S08

Joined: August 14, 2006
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Posted on Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:03 pm
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Just as kind of a teaser, I'm not done with this thread yet. I'm trying out some other thoughts and realizations that have occurred to me in kind of a chain reaction fashion as a result of this thread. I should have some pictures later this evening (central US time zone).


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

Joined: April 02, 2008
Posts: 2273
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Location: Lincoln, NE

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Posted on Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:57 pm
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I look forward to the results Coif Smiley and my message was not meant to close the thread I just wanted to express my appreciation for all you have heped me realize and learn. The learning goes on.....


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

MailleCode V2.0 T5.3 R4.4 E0.0 Feur MFe.sBr Wg Cwb G.7-5.1 I3.1-11 N20.5 Pj Dcdjt Xa1w2 S08

Joined: August 14, 2006
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Location: McPherson, Kansas

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Posted on Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:55 pm
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MusicMan wrote:
I look forward to the results Coif Smiley and my message was not meant to close the thread I just wanted to express my appreciation for all you have heped me realize and learn. The learning goes on.....


I didn't think you were closing the thread, as I said, I was just kind of issuing a teaser for anybody who was interested. Smile

And whether creating something new, or figuring out a new way to think about something already existing, it's all a matter of learning, and my thanks goes out to you for starting the discussion that was the catalyst for this particular string of learning on my part.


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

Joined: August 14, 2006
Posts: 1890
Submissions: 50
Location: McPherson, Kansas

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Posted on Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:42 am
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I apologize, I didn't get to the pictures, so y'all will just have to do with some rambling at the moment. This is a rough approximation of my train of thought the past few days regarding the Euro-Persian hybrids (EPHs) Persian Dragonscale (PDS) and Dragonback (DB). I warn you, this will get fairly verbose.

First of all, in order to "sheet" (corrugate Smile) either of those two, it is necessary to think of the Half Persian 3-in-1 (HP3) sides not as < and > but as rather lopsided Xs. Secondly, one needs to have an AR or a combination of ARs that will allow enough wiggle room to connect to the unattached arms of the Xs. I chose to use hand wound 14SWG/12AWG (.081", ~2mm) wire with 1/2" (.5", 12.7mm) (for the HP3 segments) and 3/8" (.375", ~9.5mm) (for the European 4-in-1 (E4) stitching) IDs and cut via score and break to allow me enough room to verify my ideas. I have since found that a 7/16" (0.4375", ~11.1mm) and 5/16"(0.3125", ~7.9mm) combination of similarly wound and cut rings work nicely as well. While I have successfully made single strips of PDS and DB with TRL's 14g 3/8", I'm not sure on the expansion possibilities with only that ring size.

Now, it is common knowledge that both PDS and DB are simply lengths of HP3 stitched up with E4, correct? And while it is documented, it is not explicitly stated anywhere exactly the orientation that HP3 chains have in relation to each other in PDS, and, as far as I've seen, there is no HP3 stitched together tutorials at all for DB. However, in my explorations of sheeting these two weaves, there came "Click. Aha!" moment that I will share with you now, whether you conciously know it or not. PDS is two opposite handedness HP3 chains stitched together bottom to bottom. DB is two opposite handedness HP3 chains stitched together side to side. Very simple. Okay, so now I had that down. Then came the "what if..." territory.

What if #1. What if 2 opposite handedness HP3 chains were stitched together top to top? Yep, something else. Corollary: Depending on how you look at it, PDS sheet is really either PDS strips laying next to each other and stitched together, or something else strips laying next to each other stitched together. After all, if PDS is bottom to bottom, then to stitch two of them together you are stitching top to top between the two strips. At the 1/2" 3/8" combo, the difference is not really noticeable. At the 7/16" 5/16" combo, a strip of something else (tentatively calling it Persian Dragontail) is noticeably different than PDS. I have yet to try to sheet the 7/16" 5/16" combo for comparison purposes.

What if #2. What if the other sides of opposite handedness HP3 strips were stitched together? Wait. That's no different than the first two sides being stitched together. Further ruminating. Hmmm...but what would it take to get one strip of right side up HP3 stitched together with one strip of upside down HP3? For this, your HP3 strips need to be the same handedness. Got it? Same handedness to get the rings to lay correctly (or at least, how I was shooting for Smile) for this next experiment. For documentation purposes, this will be connecting HP3 side to side, but connecting a top connection point on a right side up HP3 to a bottom connection point of an upside down HP3. The 7/16" 5/16" combo can also be used here. This results in a EPH that has an off center ridge, unlike the other EPHs mentioned previously. When sheeted, instead of having even troughs in the corrugation, you have a very minor trough, and then a major trough.

Back to the 1/2" 3/8" ring combo. Since the submitting of Dragonback Sheet, the sample in the image has been folded over and stitched up into, for lack of a better description, Dragonback Box. The flatter bottom gave the space necessary to connect it this way, and the humped top gives the resulting bulk (it's approximately an inch and a quarter square, inch a and a half from end of one arm to the opposite arm) a plus shaped cross section. At this point in time, I don't want to try to figure out how to extend it once it's folded over, although it may be simpler than it first appears.

Okay, I'm tired, I'm making too many typos I'm having to go back and correct, so I'm going to bed. I will get pictures, and possibly an article, and probably a weave submission or two up in the next day or so. Question, comments, as usual, are accepted/requested.


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

Joined: August 12, 2008
Posts: 776
Submissions: 12
Location: Ketchikan, Alaska

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Posted on Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:27 am
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Very intriguing, ED! I'm especially interested to see the Dragonback Box. It sounds like it would do particularly well for sculptural maille.

You've really run with this concept and I hope you'll stop teasing us before too much longer and post some pictures! Razz


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EPH research, quick and dirty photos (image heavy!!!!)
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Posted on Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:40 am || Last edited by ElementalDragon on Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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More EPH (and other) stuff here

Dragonback Box:
End view

Flexibility

Might be good structurally with some AR tweaking, but that's a bit more flexible than I think structural should be, Talia Smile

Persian Dragontail:
Top/bottom view (like Persian Dragonscale, it'll appear the same from either side, aside from any color differences Smile)

Side view

It flares much more along the sides compared to the other EPHs.

Dragonflank ("Ugh! His horse's flanks!"):
Top/bottom view (unlike Dragonback, this does appear the same on either side, again, color differences not included)

Sheet


Everything else is in the directory linked above. Some more top/bottom views with reversed colors, some images of the HP3, PDS, and DB we already know and love, a couple more DB Box images. All are the 7/16" 5/16" combo mentioned above.

As the subject line says, quick and dirty photos. Not really any time taken to get them to look their best. I will take some time on any article or weave submissions I make, but this is what I've got time and energy for right now.


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

Joined: August 12, 2008
Posts: 776
Submissions: 12
Location: Ketchikan, Alaska

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Posted on Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:00 am
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Nice (and thorough!) work, Elemental Dragon!

That DB Box really is a handsome weave. Whatn are the measurements?


Maille Code V1.0 T5.1 R3.6 Feur MAg.t Wcmi Cjwc G2.0/0.6 I38.1/2.5 Pj Dj S99 CCips

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