Persian Dragonscale Sheet attempt
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Posted on Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:44 pm
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No but I wasn't trying to make a sheet, however Ridgeway was expanded to make Ridgeways and that's very similar.


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Posted on Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:05 pm
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Oh! That's why the wording was the same for most of the two enteries!

Yes, I looked very hard at both of those, but upside-down-ed-ness Smile of the alternating strips of hp3in1 would equalize the effect of the angles of the repeated use of the hp3in1 strips at the intersection with the e4in1. I'm checking now to see if there is any significant curvature that would make a Persian Dragonscale derived sheet unusable for sheet purposes.

@MM- I've not lost sight, however, that the purpose of this thread is to check out your weave. I'm just doing some background research.... Very Happy And having greaat fun in the process. BTW- enjoyed looking at your other maille photos on your album!


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Posted on Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:11 pm
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Music Man-
Holy Smokes! Now I can really see how much thought and work you've put into this. It's like you're on a quest, isn't it? Good for you!

Tell me if I'm understanding you correctly-
PDS goes like this if you were to look at a cross section of the length: <=>
Your variant is kind of like this: <=<=>=>, only a bit more squished in down the edges?


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Posted on Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:27 pm
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Talia wrote:
Music Man-
Holy Smokes! Now I can really see how much thought and work you've put into this. It's like you're on a quest, isn't it? Good for you!

Tell me if I'm understanding you correctly-
PDS goes like this if you were to look at a cross section of the length: <=>
Your variant is kind of like this: <=<=>=>, only a bit more squished in down the edges?



Yes, that is the general structure and the edges being so squished was the reason I was not able to successfully expand it horizontally the full length of the chain. Yet. Coif Smiley

It hasn't been as much of a quest as a passion. I love PDS and some day I am going to figure out how to expand it so it keeps its original structure<=> across the sheet. But for now we have what we have. I hope you enjoy what it is now I have really enjoyed the look and feel of it.


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Posted on Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:16 am
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MusicMan wrote:
Yes, that is the general structure and the edges being so squished was the reason I was not able to successfully expand it horizontally the full length of the chain. Yet. Coif Smiley

It hasn't been as much of a quest as a passion. I love PDS and some day I am going to figure out how to expand it so it keeps its original structure<=> across the sheet. But for now we have what we have. I hope you enjoy what it is now I have really enjoyed the look and feel of it.


Actually, I have enjoyed this quite a bit! And I do really like the look and feel of PDS, which I don't think I would have really checked out yet had it not been for your thread!

At this point, I would have to agree with Legba in that I, too, would see this as an embellished PDS. At the same time, I do not by any means think your quest (passion) is in vein. I think you are well on your way to a creating a structural modification that would warrant a stand-alone variant.

The double-layered characteristic of this weave is certainly a challenge, and though I can't think of an example right now from the world of chainmaille, I can think of a few from the world of knitting. And these two worlds I'm finding to have many similarities.

I'm glad to hear that it sounds like you're going to keep plugging at it. Just throwing ideas out here: Have you tried <==<=>==>? If that one works, perhaps <==<==<=>==>==> and so forth would work as well. Not only would the edges have more room, but the left/right handedness of the hp3in1 would alternate from strip to strip all the way across, which may lend more flexibility to the finished sheet.

While I'm sure you've probably already read these, anyone else following this thread may find these articles from the MAIL library interesting:
Understanding the Persian Family
Closing the gap between Euro and Persian families

I'm still working on the opened, flat sheet version of PDS, checking out it's viability. It's got the most wonderful drape to it. I don't think the word lucious would be wrong. Watch for my post on that soon!


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Posted on Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:14 pm
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Talia wrote:
BTW- enjoyed looking at your other maille photos on your album!


Thanks! I am just starting and really don't have the finer details down yet, but I am having fun. I figured out how to make a Persian 3-1 ring this weekend and when my wife saw it she commented "I would wear one of those" Very Happy First time she said that! So now we have matching rings.


I did start to try out the <==<=>==> method, but ran out of rings and with my 2 year old being sick I haven't gotten back to it yet. When I do I will let you know how it works. Thanks for the comments and Ideas.


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Posted on Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:51 pm
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Y'all still working on this?


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Posted on Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:34 pm
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Yes, I have been working on it still. I currently have 4 rows using some of Talia's suggestions, the above example only had 3, but Christmas projects have gotten in the way and I haven't gotten around to seeing if/when it locks up. As soon as I get anything definite I will add it to the discussion.


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Posted on Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:11 pm
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Just taking a quick glance, it seems to me that it's not a sheet, because it's just an edging. To expand it widthwise would just mean adding more strips of Euro4-1 in the middle.

I don't know if I'd call it a weave at all, chain or otherwise. Just looks like you have a neat seam or edge, and then stacked two edges close to each other.

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Posted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:06 am || Last edited by ElementalDragon on Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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I'm not sure how much of this was just thinking out loud to get thoughts moving and how much may have been serious statements, but I'm going to run down this real quick. Not picking on you, Talia, honest Smile

Talia wrote:
Persian Dragonscale CANNOT be made into sheet form.


Incorrect.

Talia wrote:
Why? It's already sheet woven into a round. WHAT!?!?

Correct, but that does not affect whether it can be sheeted or not. It is just a matter of finding the right connections and ring sizes. Celtic Roundmaille Sheet, for instance, is an example of a round weave sheeted.

Talia wrote:

Persian Dragonscale has a predictable horizontal pattern which can be repeated: one strip of p3in1, one strip of eu4in1, where each strip is joined by its edges to the next. The Persian Dragonscale we have an example of in the Hybrids library is 2 repeats of the pattern AND THEN BROUGHT INTO THE ROUND, using the unfinished edges to join the first strip with the last.

Implications:
1.) Persian Dragonscale as it has been catalogued is a round weave, limiting it's expantion to up and down.
2.) There does, theoretically, exist a Persian Dragonscale sheet which, in theory, is infinately expandable in four directions, however I'm not sure if it's in the library yet. I'll look into that too. I'm about to test out this theory and will post my results soon.
3.) Music Man- I'm not sure if this seems to me yet to be an embellishment on an existing weave or if your modifications change the actual structure of the original weave, but I'm excited to try it out. I think your instructions iwth the pictures are clear enough for me to give it a shot, but I will PM you if I have any questions. Then I'll post my personal opinon, fwiw, once I've played around with it a bit Smile


1.) Yes it's a round or tube weave, but no that does not necessarily limit its direction of expansion.
2.) There does actually exist a Persian Dragonscale Sheet which in all actuality is expandable in at least two dimensions (length and width) and an enterprising soul might possibly be inclined to try adjusting ring sizes to be able to expand in all three physically perceptible/quantifiable dimensions. It is not in the library, yet. (Edit: It is now.)
3.) I can not exactly describe exactly how MusicMan's connections differ from what I perceived and constructed as PDS Sheet, but it is definitely different. Different ring sizes might allow expansion, but it's still not what I would picture as true PDSS. I'd be inclined to vote for Extended or Expanded Persian Dragonscale.

Quote:
(EDITED BY CYNAKE - Those weren't image links, those were website links, they hide the location of the pics, I extracted them, fixed that for you.)
Sorry, Cynake, but no, they don't work. Is there a problem with using offsite links that we are not aware of?


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Posted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:51 am
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No, strangely, I don't feel picked upon....

ED- I do see your point regarding the "sheeting" of parallel round weaves, but I don't think of them as SHEET weaves.... perhaps corrugation. And I don't mean for that to carry any negative connotations; it's just a structural differentiation.

Anyway, funny you should mention this: I did unfurl Persian Dragonscale and play around with it, and as I suspected, it does make a potentially infinate sheet, and a spectacular one at that!

Mailers, meet Alligator River. Alligator River, maillers.



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Posted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:26 am
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Talia wrote:
ED- I do see your point regarding the "sheeting" of parallel round weaves, but I don't think of them as SHEET weaves.... perhaps corrugation. And I don't mean for that to carry any negative connotations; it's just a structural differentiation.


*nods* Agreed. But, structural differentiation and terminology aside, there is precedent for expanding chains that are typically thought of in only one dimension (length) into two or even three dimensions in some instances. Some are easier than others, however. And, relatively speaking, Persian Dragonscale, and the similar Dragonback are both fairly easy to expand width wise without just tacking more E4 between the HP3 strands.

Talia wrote:

Anyway, funny you should mention this: I did unfurl Persian Dragonscale and play around with it, and as I suspected, it does make a potentially infinate sheet, and a spectacular one at that!

Mailers, meet Alligator River. Alligator River, maillers.
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/pics/7477alligator_river_compressed_696x464.jpg


Yeah, I saw this in the new weaves. Nice Smile


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Posted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:47 pm
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Elemental Dragon wrote:

I can not exactly describe exactly how MusicMan's connections differ from what I perceived and constructed as PDS Sheet, but it is definitely different. Different ring sizes might allow expansion, but it's still not what I would picture as true PDSS. I'd be inclined to vote for Extended or Expanded Persian Dragonscale.


Elemental Dragon - After starting this thread, learning a great deal from it, and doing more research I would agree that it is more of an extended or expanded Persian Dragonscale than a sheet.

Cynake wrote:

I don't know if I'd call it a weave at all, chain or otherwise. Just looks like you have a neat seam or edge, and then stacked two edges close to each other.


Cynake - I am not sure if it would be a weave at all either, I just liked how it looked and felt and since it was a repeated PDS right next to each other I called the thread what I did . It has been a great learning experience and I continue to learn new things and try out new ideas.

[quote](EDITED BY CYNAKE - Those weren't image links, those were website links, they hide the location of the pics, I extracted them, fixed that for you.)

Sorry Cynake I tried to post the pictures in the thread, but just haven't figured that one out yet. It is probably really easy, but I am still learning and have much to learn. Sad

Talia - I love your Alligator River Smile I may have to try that one really soon.


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

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Posted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:21 pm
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Elemental Dragon wrote:
Sorry, Cynake, but no, they don't work. Is there a problem with using offsite links that we are not aware of?


No no..

Just, the way it was done. They had an HTML link within IMG tags, so of course it didn't work (and also didn't link). So I went to the page, and, it was stubborn in not letting you find the link to the actual image. But I found it, and replaced it. If you copy and paste the URL, (same as you had to before), you get the actual image (rather than the page). I checked it a few times, and, 50% of the time the inline image worked, 50% of the time it didn't. I dunno. The webhost there is kinda funky.

I suppose it would've been better to leave the originals and box 'em in URL tags, or, spit the image location into the URL tag. Ugg.

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Persian Dragonscale (image count warning)
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Posted on Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:30 pm
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On the subject of Persian Dragonscale.

MusicMan, I have come up with a sheetable form of PDS as a result of this discussion here.

As you were the one who initiated the subject and the research, I kind of feel like I'm stealing your thunder, so to speak. I may not have reason to, but I do. So, I have a bit of a perceived quandary here. How do you want to handle this?

On the inline image subject.

Going from the post in which MusicMan has an end view, a side view, and a worn view, using the end view link.

The HTML link:
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2715212190103352590QXAuaw

From there, there is a little toolbar just under the photo, the rightmost of which has a tooltip of "copy the code to post this photo in a forum". I clicked on it.

Next page gives me an interface that allows me to pick code for
100px wide:

200px wide:

425px wide:

500px wide:

600px wide:


Firefox 3.0.4 on Windows XP. Process may vary with different software/OS:
Right-click on the text under "post in a forum", click "Select All", copy, paste into forum post.

(M.A.I.L. forum preview is showing 425, 500, and 600 as the same size, we'll see if there's a difference once I post this.)

I don't much see the point of trying to dig for direct image links when the host site provides tools for doing what is necessary. Not unless I'm curious, anyway Smile


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

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