Bullet proof chainmaille and armor plates
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Joined: March 12, 2003
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Location: Tawas City

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Posted on Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:35 am
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Not possible no matter how you play it.

maille can do more damage to you when hit by a bullet then the bullet it self alone. with the slowing of the metal plate would just help it do more damage.

We ( part of a maille research goup and myself) have tryed hundreds of variations on maille and plat with guns to see how they hold up. and are findings is THEY DON'T, and should not be even be attemted out side of properly controled conditions. we had police, parametics, and the fire department present during every test done. we filmed all of it with a high speed camera (sorry i don't own the videos, wish i did Sad ) to see how it re-acted on the straw dommy we had it on. in one sinario we used a std' 22 rifle and shot at a pice of HP3in1 sheet 5in1, the result was horrific, the chainmail though spredig out some of the initioal "bang" could not take the pure kenetic force and it it self blew up in to tiny bits (5.43 in hole in the maille) and after we disected the dummy a little we found rings and ring fragments inbeded several inches deep. and even found some haning off the back side of the dommy.

CHAINMAILE IS NOT GUN PROOF IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!!
DO NOT TRY!!
DO NOT SHOOT YOUR MAIL AS IT CAN BLOW RINGS EVERY WARE AT VARY HIGH SPEEDS!!



maille Code V2.0 T8.3 R6.4 Ep.f Fper Mfe.s Wsg$ Cpw$ G0.25-2.5 I0.5-30 N31.31 Pa Dacdjw Xa27g37w1 S94

Joined: March 07, 2004
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Location: Dallas, Texas

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Posted on Tue Oct 04, 2005 4:37 am
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just a word of warning, a .22 will go right through a kevlar vest. they're small, fast, and sharp tipped. ask any cop. please PLEASE dont attempt it with a 22. try a 12 guage with a slug. thats easier to stop. MUCH easier. www.theboxotruth.com


Are there washing instructions?
Gu-burii sabiri

www.chouschains.tk

Joined: April 10, 2005
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Posted on Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:19 am
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Chou wrote:
just a word of warning, a .22 will go right through a kevlar vest. they're small, fast, and sharp tipped. ask any cop. please PLEASE dont attempt it with a 22. try a 12 guage with a slug. thats easier to stop. MUCH easier. www.theboxotruth.com


So you're saying "Please stand infront of a 12 guage slug"?

Joined: May 27, 2005
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Posted on Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:26 am
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ClymAngus

Your wisdom is welcome here always...
( and you're a general of words..)
So as a captain of this space on a wet and stormy night I say,
I'm not sure of your final conclusion that anything over a 22 will go right through a steel plate, thus rendering the round penetrating the steel not only deadly but as forceful as the shrapnel shooting into your body along side it.
I think I will take some steel plates out to the range and put them up against a clock standard rounds... I am to understand mushroom head rounds have the same effect as getting shot with a glock with ONLY chainmaille...lots of metal breaking off into body on impact.

Dragnar

I love the idea of mail over kevlar plates!
Can someone tell me this... HOW MUCH $$ is kevlar gear..
as in, can the normal citizen even find a place to buy kevlar gear, and how much is it?
is the stuff they use in the military and 'expensive mafia operations' really as good as the stuff 'normal people' can get?
I would really like to aquire some information on this subject...
anyone?

Joined: May 27, 2005
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Posted on Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:36 am
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Macks, thanks for clearing it up for the kids...
I'm not saying I'm going to be running around at pre planned crime scenes in chain maile trying to take bullets from an Ak with Uzi backup!
oh no. BUt thanks for the official(Copyright) warning.
KIDS, GUNS ARE BAD!
Guns don't kill people, people do.

Joined: March 29, 2005
Posts: 505
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Location: Plumstead, London

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Posted on Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:01 am
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Flowstone wrote:
Guns don't kill people, people do.


I can see your point that said, guns make the job easier, safer and a lot less messy. Going toe to toe with someone means getting your hands dirty, means you have to work for it. They turn life and death into a computer game. Guns may not hold intent, (although with modern robotics their already working on that one) but they are a tool for ending life. I'll get off the soap box now, as this is way off topic Smile

Would love to see the written up finding of those experiments X. Anyway they could be net published?

And boys and girls if your firing guns at chainmail, remember that before hand, when signing your life insurance policy, my name is spelt C-L-Y-M and it goes in the beneficiary box. Life is full of woe, luckily most black clouds have a silver lining if you look hard enough.

Joined: August 20, 2002
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Location: Muscatine Iowa

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Posted on Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:33 am
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Have you ever seen any of the ballistic tests on this subject? Summing it up quickly goes something like this....

Gun is fired...
Bullet impacts chainmail...
Chainmail links shatter...
Bullet and shattered chainmail links penetrate body...

The big, huge, gigantic difference between modern body armor and chain is that kevlar and spectraguard don't shatter and disperse the kinetic energy more efficiently.

Joined: August 01, 2004
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Posted on Wed Oct 05, 2005 2:56 am
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Deirdre wrote:
Oh sure, you can totally do this. Use any dense weave you like, just use mithril as your material, not steel. Also, it will have to be woven by dwarves and gnomes from the magical land of Farie and overseen by the unicorn lord...... Rolling Eyes


That would be so cool.

Joined: April 20, 2004
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Location: See Heisenberg\'s Uncertianty Principle

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Posted on Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:17 pm
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How about we put this in very simple terms: If maille or metal plates were feasably useful at stopping bullets, then why is it that all modern body armor is made from ceramic plates and Kevlar weaves?

Plate armor was phased out in the late 1500's when guns became accurate enough to be reliable and they discovered that the shot (lead balls and not a proper bullet) went straight through the front of a breastplate, but was slowed down enough that it ricocheted off the backplate, doing *massive* internal damage. Yes, modern steel is better, but so are modern bullets. Man has always been able to defeat armor with something simpler. A 46lb, man-portable Javelin missile will destroy the most modern of main battle tanks.

Maille is effective against cutting strikes. It is not very effective against blunt force or piercing.
Plate armor is good against blunt, piercing, and cutting, but is weakest against piercing force. This is because the steel plate does not absorb the force without giving. It simply resists. Once you overcome that resistance, the plate fails completely.
So, taking maille or steel plates against a bullet, is putting up said armor against the type of attack that *the armor is weakest to stop*. So, please, if you actually need something to stop bullets, use something that is *designed* to stop them.


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Enough to make a grown man cry.

Joined: August 25, 2005
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Posted on Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:29 pm
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hanelyp wrote:
Kuragari wrote:
Stopping a .22 with chainmaille isn't that challenging. I personally wouldn't stand in the way of it, but I know 14G 3/8" E 1in6 will stop it. I shot a piece myself a while ago. Caught the bullet inbetween the rings.

What was backing the maille? How far did it deflect on impact? I would not trust results for maille hanging free to apply when the maille is against something halfway solid.


Empty gas can (plastic kind). I can tell you right now that it would still break a bone from the impact I saw, but the bullet was stopped.

Joined: February 11, 2004
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Posted on Wed Oct 05, 2005 9:10 pm
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I'll just agree with what most of the people on here have said: guns don't mix with maille. Maille can't stop bullets, anyway, anyhow.
Kuragari, try repeating that experiment. I doubt it happens that way again. I doubt it goes that way again.

Try doing a search for this topic, including all forums. It comes up once in a while, and we have had atleast one mailler do their own research (besides maxum x). Theres also links to sites with force involved, and an article about someone who put on maille, and let themselves get shot. They either died, or almost did, cause the bullet ripped right through the maille, and flung rings through their body. Caught on tape, since it was some idiot news person.

Latas


You are but a figment of your imagination in a poor attempt to amuse yourself.

"Don't be reckless with other people's hearts. In fact, put those lungs down too. The organ bank is not a playground"

Chain armour + Bullets = Hot Knife + butter

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Joined: March 29, 2002
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Posted on Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:35 pm
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Tightly woven (1.6mm X 7mm) welded spring stainless will stop big slow bullets most of the time (.45 auto and bigger/slower). Thats about the strongest mail possible and at least 50 times as strong as anything that can be made with butted gavanized fence wire. I am curently researching mail against smaller and faster rounds but it doesn't look too promising.


weldedchainmail.com

Joined: March 29, 2005
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Location: Plumstead, London

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Posted on Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:23 am
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knuut wrote:
Tightly woven (1.6mm X 7mm) welded spring stainless will stop big slow bullets most of the time (.45 auto and bigger/slower). Thats about the strongest mail possible and at least 50 times as strong as anything that can be made with butted gavanized fence wire. I am curently researching mail against smaller and faster rounds but it doesn't look too promising.


As Scotty put it (may he be drinking mead in the high hall, wes-du-hal)
"you canne change the laws of physics cappin"

Joined: September 14, 2005
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Posted on Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:05 pm
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In my past,
I was in the Air Force Security police.
I was an Armorer, and am currently a nurse and an EMT.

Chainmaille; no matter how tight the weave, there is space between
the links, the bullet will splinter and basically explode on impact.
Some links will fail, some links will transfer the energy and become
aprojectile.
So the .22 caliber bullet will splinter and some will penetrate your body. Some under the chain and some into your face, and legs.

A kevlar vest is a fabric wooven so tight it can prevent penetration of most handgun calibers. With the ceramic tiles the vest can prevent some rifle calibers.(if the bullets hit the plates.)

If you shoot a sheet of maille(without anything behind it) the bullet will probably be deflected, but with something against the chain,
it will probably breech the maille. (My thinking on the deflection being like throwing a ball against a sheet,)

Remember, when shooting objects that are meant to stop bullets,
they can richocet in random directions. It is very dangerous to be in the open when bullets are bouncing around. So only play with
bullet proof items, with a fully enclosed shooting port.

I will repeat what others have said, Don't wear the chain while testing the bullet penetration.

Chain maille was made obsolete by cap and powder guns.
Guns currently availible are drastically better then the cap and
ball guns. Even with the new alloys, the bullet is far more dangerous then chain maille can offer.
Chain will help in a crash, and if facing a opponent with
a stabbing or slashing weapon, but not any firearm.


Chain Armorer, apprentice
Chain Jewelry, professional(I got paid for chain!)
SCA Wilhelmus Pilgramm

Joined: September 14, 2005
Posts: 109
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Posted on Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:10 pm
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Flowstone wrote:
ClymAngus

Your wisdom is welcome here always...
( and you're a general of words..)
So as a captain of this space on a wet and stormy night I say,
I'm not sure of your final conclusion that anything over a 22 will go right through a steel plate, thus rendering the round penetrating the steel not only deadly but as forceful as the shrapnel shooting into your body along side it.
I think I will take some steel plates out to the range and put them up against a clock standard rounds... I am to understand mushroom head rounds have the same effect as getting shot with a glock with ONLY chainmaille...lots of metal breaking off into body on impact.

Dragnar

I love the idea of mail over kevlar plates!
Can someone tell me this... HOW MUCH $$ is kevlar gear..
as in, can the normal citizen even find a place to buy kevlar gear, and how much is it?
is the stuff they use in the military and 'expensive mafia operations' really as good as the stuff 'normal people' can get?
I would really like to aquire some information on this subject...
anyone?


Body armor is very expencive.
look up body armor on line.
Probably on security sights.

Another thought, an ice pick was said to be able to penetrate the
new kevlar vests. Thin and fast.


Chain Armorer, apprentice
Chain Jewelry, professional(I got paid for chain!)
SCA Wilhelmus Pilgramm

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