Riveted maille is hard to make
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Riveted maille is hard to make
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Posted on Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:15 pm
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Hey, ive made 2 shirts now, both butted.

after watching videos online, i now realise how inferior Butted maille is to riveted maille.

from what i can gather, a butted maille shirt will stop (no guarantees, just what ive seen on youtube)

- an air rifle round
- a slash from a knife
- a throwing knife thrown poorly

where as riveted maille ive seen stop without even a single link breaking:

- a sword slash
- sword thrusts, the tip only just penetrates
- knife thrusts

i am thinking of making a riveted maille shirt, but i am having real difficulty even making the riveted rings. when hammering flat they overlap wrong and making the hole is very difficult , i do not own a punch just tried drilling with a fine bit.

i know it will be time consuming and it will probably take me a year or so to complete it , my other 2 shirts i made when i was 14 and 16

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Re: Riveted maille is hard to make
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Posted on Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:52 pm
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darksidedsam wrote:
after watching videos online, i now realise how inferior Butted maille is to riveted maille.

AFAIK, welded maille is stronger and easier to make than riveted maille, so I don't see any reason to rivet links nowadays if not to get and historical look.

darksidedsam wrote:
where as riveted maille ive seen stop without even a single link breaking:

- a sword slash
- sword thrusts, the tip only just penetrates
- knife thrusts

For what I've seen on Youtube, with a good sword thrust only the tip penetrates, indeed, but enough to cause a mortal wound.
And the advantages you're listing leads to one question:
How likely are you to be attacked by someone with a real, sharpened sword?

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Re: Riveted maille is hard to make
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Posted on Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:54 pm
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Shirluban wrote:

How likely are you to be attacked by someone with a real, sharpened sword?


+1 Laughing


http://chainmaillebookproject.ninjatails.com/index.php --Please contribute! Existing members, put this in your signature to increase publicity!

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:30 am
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Eh, Sam's tired of schlepping the weight around.

Riveted mail only needs wire about 1.2mm diameter, or a mere 1mm -- 18 gauge SWG or lighter. 5/8 the weight of 14gaSWG (about 2mm) in the same link diameter.

Welding it calls for at minimum around 600 Euros worth of specialist resistance welding equipment. This does exist and can be mail-ordered.

Riveting is all cold work except for the normalization of the metal, calling for a sturdy wood block for the piercing, a means of heating links to red heat, and a modified pair of tongs to set the rivet into the hole made by the piercing drift and hammer, and then to upset the rivet end to clinch the tiny rivet. The suite of tools needed for these tasks is small, simple, and compact. You have more need of a heavy hammer to flatten the link ends out for the riveting than you have of pliers, which you don't need at all for the weaving; you just snap the links together like key rings using your fingers. But with all the flattening and riveting steps it'll take four times the man-hours a butted shirt would.

There are two later-model styles of riveting: round riveted, and the triangular-wedge riveting devised in the fourteenth century, that goes into a pierced, drifted hole shaped more like a slot. Drifting the hole open works better than punching, as it merely shoves material aside, not knocking a slug of metal out. Thus the metal is conserved, kept where it needs to be, and is stronger.


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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:41 am
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So bally stop that drilling at once. It isn't working at all anyway.

Flatten the link ends, overlap/shrink to get 3/16" of overlap at the ends, final flatten the two ends together with another hammer tap -- and use a four pound hammer for heaven's sake, preferably a drilling- or clout-hammer: a very slightly rounded hammer face is easier to aim for flattening links. A lighter hammer can get it done, but will take a lot more total time. Don't try to power the hammer down fast; that makes defects; heavy and a hair slow is the answer. The metal under that hammer needs a few hundredths of a second to spread out flat, and not to double-doorstop.

After normalization heat to red/cool in air, make piercing drifts out of masonry nails -- a boxful is cheap, and make several at a time using a stone. They are small and delicate and rather easy to break the nose off of, necessitating regrinding. Re-shape the pyramidal point of the nail into something more like the blade of a tiny screwdriver 1/16" across, but sharpened with a bevel, not squared off -- like a teensy cold-chisel. Drift a slot in the link overlap. Now you're ready to put a triangular rivet in, shoved in hard enough to stick so you can put the squeeze on its pointy end and upset it into a clinched-down rivet head.


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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:48 am
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id rather rivet than weld it really. im not designing this because im going into a knife fight lol, i just dont like the fact ive made 2 butted shirts that are not very protective considering.

im not sure about hammering i was thinking last night a tall upright flattening device would be better, i would like to basically produce identical riveted rings over and over.

as for the weight of the shirt, im not caring about the weight of the shirt really , i found 250 meters of 1.8mm steel wire for £10.75 so im considering using that source / wire

i think riveted would be easier to work with if the wire is a bit thicker. (more surface area left around the hole then)

----

"First, I flatten loose links, as cut from the initial coil, say 3/8" diameter (10mm). This first flattening eliminates slip-offs of the link ends by mashing the link ends in particular into a flattened cross section. I concentrate rather upon the link ends, although the rest of the circumference of the link gets flatter too.

Then I overlap, using a 5/16" diameter (~8mm+) mandrel to control link ID positively. I squeeze them down with pliers or with heavy pressure between a thick board and a hard surface like concrete. Pressing between two steel plates would do as well."

you said that in another thread konstantin , ill give that method a try when i get home

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:49 pm
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it all depends on the maille too though, If you attack like a tight 0.1"wire J 6 in 2 none of those weapons would get through.

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Posted on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:55 pm
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The thing to remember is that maille doesn't stop force (nothing does), it merely redistributes it. Stress is force over an area. Increase for or decrease area and you get more stress. Strain is the response of the material to stress--more stress equals more strain. The goal of armor is to decreass strain by decreasing stress by increasing the area over which the force is applied.

All that said, the force is the same. Which means that if I hit you hard enough with a sword, I'm going to shatter your arm whether you're wearing maille or not.

My point is, YOU may break before the maille does.

[quote=Shirluban]How likely are you to be attacked by someone with a real, sharpened sword?[/quote]My mother once attacked me with one. As I recall, I was doing my math homework at the time.

[quote=darksidedsam]i would like to basically produce identical riveted rings over and over.

[/quote]You can do that with a hammer. It just takes practice. And believe me, you will get PLENTY of practice making a shirt! Very Happy

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Posted on Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:36 am
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What Dinwar said.

They tell me flattened mail links make a surprising difference in how a blow received feels -- apparently it gets spread out more. I for one would still want some gambeson under it.

A lot of wire thickness, well, Erik D. Schmid tells me he doesn't really like it much -- says it's rather a hassle to work, and "rather a hassle" ends up being a major cumulative annoyance by the time you've gotten to the bottom of a 25K-link shirt. "It's a PITA," he said. About all I can say is try and beat the annealed, ungalvanized links out really flat. So far, I've not wanted to shrink 16ga wire (.0631"/1.6mm) any smaller than 5/16" ID, and it would suit a 3/8" ID link every bit as well.

Schmid lays a lot of stress on the overlaps getting swaged into a pent-roof look with the ridgeline, as it were, running through the rivet hole or slot. This seems to call for triangle-filing a suitable shallow groove in the setting tongs' jaw to make it, along with softening the links up with a normalizing heat. Maybe what getting the overlaps' cross sections to look kind of ^-ish helps the rivet clinch tightly on the overlap when you upset it. Tight is good; then it doesn't come apart at all easily.

And it's small wonder that some armour maillers save themselves half their labor and time by spending some money to have a washer maker run up 20,000 mild steel spacer rings of such and such diameters and a certain thickness. Half riveted, half solid. We think that's the kind of mail that certain aristocrats' household inventories list as "demi-clouée" as distinct from another description of mail -- "Tout clouée" I guess.


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Posted on Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:32 pm
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i attempted to make some riveted rings the other day but i forgot to take a picture.

i made about 4 haha i need to get a punch seriously cant drill it thats why it keeps splitting.

I also been looking up online and ive more idea on the strength of the mail and i need to decide between half solid half riveted rings or all riveted.

I believe if a shirt has 50% solid rings, it would be a lot stronger.

ive seen Textile armour, butted maille armour, low quality riveted maille, high quality riveted malle all penetrated by a longbow of around 75# draw weight

my bow is only 30# draw weight, but using pointed steel tips against a piece of butted / solid washers i actually had 4 deflects out of 15 shots at it.


all the arrow penetrations even on maille ive seen is where a single link gets hit and cant hold up to the pressure and the rivet busts or if butted opens with ease.

i like the idea that if i made a shirt it has a chance of deflecting an arrow altogether , ive already made 2 butted maille shirts and im not happy with the strength of them.

lastly i am considering the 50/50 solid riveted as my wrists do suffer crepitus pains etc =/ too much computer lol

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Posted on Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:13 am
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darksidedsam wrote:
i made about 4 haha i need to get a punch seriously cant drill it thats why it keeps splitting.


Sounds like you need to normalize/anneal better, making the steel more tough and formable.


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