A Persian Box?
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A Persian Box?
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Posted on Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:07 am
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http://mailmaker.tripod.com/persianbox.jpg

I made this weave years ago, it was the result of a bit of playing around with Half Persian 3 in 1 after handling a triangular cross section chain with HP3-1 corners made by one who used to post as Second Hand Hippie on Lord Charles' Chainmaille Board.

The other day I started adding a bit of length to the sample I had, and randomly decided to look up the weave to find out its name. It is such a simple deviation from HP3-1 that I was very surprised to not find it in the weaves library. Maybe I just wasn't looking in the right places...

It is a Euro/Persian hybrid. Structurally it is just a square cross section chain made up of four lengths of HP3-1 as corners. Unlike the wide side of Wyrm Tail and other Euro-Persian Hybrids, the HP chains are woven directly to each other rather than by "sewing" the chains up with an additional ring in a Euro style linkage. This makes only two rings per side involved in the Euro style connections, and those rings are directly integrated into the HP3-1 corners.

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Posted on Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:12 am
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Check out Half Persian 3 in 1 Sheet 5 Box. Yours seems like a nicer AR choice.

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:29 am
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ah, thank you - that does look like the same weave to me as well.
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=538

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Posted on Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:44 am
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"the only one-sided three-dimensional object constructed of mail in existence." I lolve science.

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Posted on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:22 am
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Is this also the same?
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=71
Its hard for me to tell with that AR and the short length.

I'm not sure I agree with the bit about Aberrant Artificer's example being a one sided three dimensional shape... I'll ask my in-laws about it next time I see them, both are mathematicians and one is really into topology.

Whats getting me whether or not a mobius strip is a 2d or 3d object. The artsy side of my brain is saying that as an object it is 3d, the other side is saying that it is in theory 2d because it has one side. Cut the strip and it turns into what is effectively a 2d object with two sides...

Now Aberrant Artificer's chain is certainly a 3d object. As a chain that is left open on the ends it has four sides (not counting the ends). Give it a half twist and connect the ends and would it be possible to follow a single path four times around it's length as it is possible to follow the path of a side around a mobius strip twice before coming back to where it was started? Damn I wish I hadn't left my sample at home...

Anyways, I found a couple other weaves in the library that are related as they are essentially corners/sides of this weave:
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=468

well, there was another that kept coming up in searches but I can find no trace if it now... it was basically half a cross section of "Half Persian 3 in 1 Sheet 5 Box", but instead of it being half like the one linked to right above, it had the HP chain in the center instead of along the sides - so HP3-1 with an additional single row of rings going up each side, connected to as per Euro 4 in 1.

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Posted on Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:15 pm
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Twisted panties aren't any more 3d then any others. The roundmaille looks to be three half persian chains. I've been making a whip with six for a while now. maybe I'll call it Persian 5 in 1 Hexagonal Roundmaille 5 times fast. Then there is the case to be made that alligator or crocodile back are the same thing in "2d". I see the whole lot as the epitome of Euro-Persian. Since European and Persian are in the library I don't know what any of them are doing there.

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Posted on Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:24 am
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djgm wrote:
Twisted panties aren't any more 3d then any others.

Confused

djgm wrote:
Then there is the case to be made that alligator or crocodile back are the same thing in "2d". I see the whole lot as the epitome of Euro-Persian. Since European and Persian are in the library I don't know what any of them are doing there.


I don't really see the various reptile backs as weaves in their own right. They seem to me to be merely HP chains on edge connected by rings to form a Euro linkage between the lengths of HP; or alternatively, to be two ribbons of Euro laid atop one another and stitched up the side as per HP.

There are a lot of weaves that I feel are not distinct enough to be considered anything more than simple variations on other weaves. Kingsmaille, snakeskin, Kinged-snakeskin, Japanese 12 in 2, Japanese 24 in 3, etc...

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Posted on Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:16 pm
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There is a case for having all variations in the library. I think the number names can be a little inconsistent. It would be great if there were some consistent terminology. I don't know maybe some people find numbers easier to remember but names like 2in1 sheet 4 just go in one of my ears and out the other.

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Posted on Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:41 pm
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Dweezle wrote:
As a chain that is left open on the ends it has four sides (not counting the ends). Give it a half twist and connect the ends and would it be possible to follow a single path four times around it's length as it is possible to follow the path of a side around a mobius strip twice before coming back to where it was started? Damn I wish I hadn't left my sample at home...


But, in the picture for HP 3in1 box 5, the chain is given a quarter twist, so that it truly becomes one sided. A mobius strip in three dimensions still has an edge, so it is really two sided.

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Posted on Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:09 pm
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Well if one would really compare a persian chain with Box, then it should be noted, that imho principally Flat Full Persian is to HP3in1Sheet5in1, what Box is to Euro4in1, or FP6in1 to HP3in1sheet6in1. But rate that yourself.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

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Posted on Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:15 pm
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Flat Full Persian is cool. I've never noticed it before. Thanx for pointing it out.

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Posted on Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:01 am
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djgm wrote:
There is a case for having all variations in the library. I think the number names can be a little inconsistent. It would be great if there were some consistent terminology. I don't know maybe some people find numbers easier to remember but names like 2in1 sheet 4 just go in one of my ears and out the other.


I agree about having all known variations in the library - I just wish their was some way of listing them that started with a basic form of a weave family and broke that family down into weaves based on how basic weaves relate to their more complicated relatives.

For example, starting with a simple 2 in 1 chain we have some of the most basic forms of European, Japanese, Spiral, and Persian weaves. As I see it, those four variations of 2 in 1 chains form a conceptual basis for most weave families, and here begins the progression into other weaves and variations within those families...

Though it is not the standard way to build Euro 4 in 1, adding a row of rings along the edge of the European variation of a 2 in1 chain will make it into a stable ribbon. From there, by adding additional rings it can turn into 6 in 1, or kings. Fold the euro 4 in 1 in half and sew it up and it becomes box... etc.

I have no idea though how all these relationships could be described since many weaves/variations start by altering placement of rings in weaves, and combining elements/linkages from other weave families. Its the sort of thing that would have been easy to start ten or so years ago, but now the number of weaves and variations would make it a monumental task to ever complete..

I also have somewhat mixed feelings about names like "2in1 sheet 4", but I feel that such descriptive names make more sense than names like Gary's Weave, Bees Without Knees, or Ocelot Spots.

ZiLi wrote:
Well if one would really compare a persian chain with Box, then it should be noted, that imho principally Flat Full Persian is to HP3in1Sheet5in1, what Box is to Euro4in1, or FP6in1 to HP3in1sheet6in1. But rate that yourself.


yes indeed, and that is the sort of comparisons I was trying to get at with my above blatherings on more clearly defining weave relationships. I think if such relationships between weaves was made more obvious then people would start coming up with even more neat variations, which in turn could lead to more weaves and possibly discovering new families of weaves.

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Posted on Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:30 am
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I think the problem is we want to express the similarity of singularities and I offer no solution.

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Posted on Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:28 pm
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flat full persian is closer to 'offset box' than hp3s5box. flat full persian contains no euro interactions.

once you learn to persian, the shorthand makes a lot of sense. i don't know how to label hp2s4 in any other way that describes perfectly how to construct the weave.

i realize that it is perhaps more difficult for beginners to catch on.
how else would one do it? arbitrary names? arbitrary names give us things like "persian dragonscale" which has not a stitch of dragonscale in it.

it is true that there are a lot of weave variations.. i am in camp "more".. i would like to see more variations.. we just need a way to skip the fluff when we don't want it.. the beginner and alpha tags are a big part of this solution. have you checked out those library tags yet?


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:51 pm
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Yes, the weave you posted in your OP is the same as the four-orbit Mobius Strip I submitted several years ago. The form I submitted is also a figure-eight Klein Bottle, if you want to split hairs. At the time of submitting, I chose to use Mobius Strip which is usually more recognized by non-math, non-science peoples.

I am, now, and at the time, was, counting the 'spine' as the single edge and the 'flat' as a the single side. On my submission, which I gave to that chairperson, if you began at one ring on the flat, or on the edge, and traced over the surface's length, you'd return to the same ring. It is four-orbit because you orbit the object four times to return to your starting location.

See the links below for further disambiguation:
Mobius Strip @ Math World
Klein Bottle @ Math World

Persian 5 in 1 Roundmaille is actually the weave I was trying to find a sample of to talk about in this post. Actually, that whole thread might be good reference for this discussion. That thread.

Indeed, Persian 5 in 1 Roundmaille is three spines of HP 3in1 Sheet 5. However, when a tighter AR is used, the weave resembles a triangular shape more than a rounded shape.

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