Rng cutting device
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Rng cutting device
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Posted on Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:05 pm
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so i was originally thinking of buying a more common ring cutter but decided first to talk to a friend that has a fair bit of machine work experience. through him i am suppose to be getting a machine that will both coil and cut about 300 rings a minute in the slower version and if we went to the quick one we could get up to 4000 a minute...i was wondering if i should suggest that he market them on here once we have them running

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Posted on Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:56 pm
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While I'm all for more options when buying a ring cutting machine, I'm guessing your machine will cost more than the current ones on the market (because it coils too)? If you have to compete with spring coiling machines (those thingies The Ring Lord uses for their machine cut rings), then I fear you won't find many buyers..

Just curious, does this machine of yours use a saw to cut the rings?

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Posted on Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:09 pm
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good question and from how my bro described it yes and no if i look at just the slow electric one its gonna cost a moderate price but nothing too harsh and the other well that might need more looking into as for the blades i'm not 100 percent on that he described the thing to me the other day but i was sleep deprived and with out the full blueprints in front of me i can't remember its not a pinch cut or a score and break i do know that much...as it is i am suppose to have blueprints thursday if not sooner and possibly the prototype by then as well i will let people know exactly how well it works once i have that and i can answer more questions after i have the prints here

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Posted on Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:41 pm
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IMO, I don't think you will be able to compete with the ringinator and the jumpringer systems. They seem to hold the vast majority of the market share unless you build a harmony style guide yourself. Make sure you research the two so you aren't copying them.

But please, post a sketch or two, get some reviews, make a prototype and prove me wrong. Its the only way advancements are made.

I'm a little confused on the slow and quick versions though. I hope you don't mean hard materials such as stainless and titanium. Absolutely no way any sawing rig would be able to cut 4000 stainless rings in a minute. Even 300 stainless rings would be pushing it depending on the gauge. There is a limit to the feedrate at which you can push coils trough. Those little saw teeth can't remove that much metal that quickly. I see catastrophic failure there.

Now if its 20g BA you're cutting, that may be a possible number. Using my ringinators, I figure I can cut 3000+ 20g rings in a minute if I were to try.

I am interested to see how you integrate coiling and cutting. Usually, the coils are spinning in the direction of coil as they "grow" so you wouldn't be able to cut them while they spin.

...but enough of my nay-saying. When you get the chance post a sketch or two of what it looks like and a description of how it would work as it sounds like an interesting idea.

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Posted on Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:26 pm
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I agree with the above, and am also very interested in how the "rotating coil" problem was solved. Please keep us posted!

Also, it is quite hard (for me, at least) to read and understand your posts, could you please use punctuation in the future? Smile

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Posted on Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:49 am
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Yes, punctuation and sentences too are a help to your readers -- who might otherwise consciously stop being your readers if you insist on not writing in English. That would be awkward, since that very thing is clearly your intent.

Punctuation: it isn't just something to get wrong on your English tests. You have a full keyboard -- enjoy the thing to the fullest.

We're not just old fuds here; we span quite a gamut of ages.


'The Minstrel Boy to the War is gone...'

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Posted on Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:10 pm
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I'm getting better with my grammer.
After looking at this, I wonder if coiling and cutting may very well be two seperate operations.

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Posted on Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:01 pm
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LH,

I would think it has to be, but there a few concepts kicking around in my head that would make coiling and cutting on the same machine plausible albeit very expensive, very clunky and awful slow.

We'll have to wait and hear from the OP to be sure.

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Posted on Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:38 pm
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For real high volume production, coil-then-cut may not be as good as cut-then-coil. When you can afford to design a machine to make them, you may want to go to cut-then-coil.

For each size ring, the ring length is fixed; circumference = pi * diameter.

If you are producing lots of rings, you could take a spool of wire, unspool it into a cutter and cut fixed lengths. When the wire is cut into these lengths, the diameter of the finished ring is fixed.

Then the precut lengths are fed into a coiler, which produces a ring ready to use. Ideally, there would be an open ring maker and a closed ring maker. The closed ring maker is an obvious step forward, but cut coils have to be opened a bit. Easy enough while you're making machines to make one coil the proper length into a pre-formed open-twisted ring.

The coiler can be designed to force a precut length into shape around a mandrel one at a time. I can think of a couple of ways to do this, and a genuine machine designer could do even better.

The nice thing about doing precut is that you can use formed shears for precutting the lengths of ring, and have no saw or abrasive waste.

Now that I think about it...

I think the whole business of making rings for maille has been determined by the historical need to make them by hand in any diameter for which there is a mandrel at hand. Once you flip over to making a small number of predetermined sizes, you can do things differently.

If any of you have ever used "hog rings" you are familiar with the pliers-like tool that takes a pre-cut length of wire and crimps it into a triangular closed loop to hold things. Great fence tool! If you wanted to make, say, an open ring, and you had the right pliers-style tool, you could take a precut length of wire, insert it into the tool, and crimp the wire around a mandrel with the pliers.

This is completely inflexible as to size of ring; you have to already know what you want to come up with first, and machine the tools to fit. But it does have the option to form rings in a cut-then-coil manner. A machine forming the wire this way instead of pliers is even better.

Note that the forming mandrel does not have to be circular, exactly. It can be slightly oval, and slightly smaller than the finished ring so that the resulting ring is pre-formed open with a bit of pre-set closed so that the ring has the little bit of forcing itself closed that's good in hand closing. The mandrel and pliers/former can also take springback into account so that you get the ring you wanted, not what the wire sprang back to.

Coil-then-cut is what you do when you have to produce rings by hand or with minimal mechanical aids. But it's not the only way when you get into the arena of producing high volumes, in the hundreds of thousands or millions of rings and can afford tooling.


R.G.

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Posted on Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:43 pm
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I think you will find, that while your theory is somewhat sound, a cut then coil machine will never take the place of coil them cut for mass production.

4 reasons.

-Complexity. In cut then coil you have to perform 2 very different tasks to which very different tooling is required. Why not push a coil through a saw? Way easier. Not to even mention handling small wire for small diameter rings. What a nightmare.

-Consistency. Try bending a few same length pieces of wire into the same diameter and then report back to me on how you made out. No you can't use a mandrel and hammer. Even a machine is going to have trouble with length and bending consistency.

-Flush cut ends. In the event you do achieve consistent results, your rings will always have a \/ shaped gap in them because there is no metal "on" the cut to deform.

-Deformed rings. Due to springback of each piece of wire, your rings will always have to be bent manually with pliers to get the ends to line up. This equals oval shaped rings because they won't be round to begin with. At least with a coil the metal deforms around the mandrel in a uniform fashion. Of course you can make your machine close them more than they need to be for defeating springback, but I wouldn't want to be making your tooling. Trial and error is a drag.

Even machine cut rings always start as a continuous piece of wire. Its just a better process.

I don't mean to pick your post apart, but the only way this is viable is when rings will be welded. Which is how I believe it is done with welded mesh machines already. Take a close look at the rings, and you'll find that they are not even close to being as uniform/round as a ring coiled on a mandrel. This of course has something to do with the welding, but ring forming/bending has a lot to do with it as well.

http://theringlord.com/images/products/finishedmaille/FSS21316.jpg

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Posted on Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:46 pm
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well my bro hasn't gotten the prints to me yet but i will call him up and ask and as soon as i have a full understanding i'll explain how he solved the issues. also sorry for the grammar i'm actually using a laptop that still only has its Spanish keyboard so buttons are a bit off...and unfortunatly it got reworked into standard english when i had to reformat it the last time

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Posted on Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:42 pm
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Any news?

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Posted on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:18 am
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unfortunately i haven't heard from him. he has been working like crazy so he doesn't have a lot of time to do the prints. if i get the chance i will remind him tomorrow.

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Posted on Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:58 pm
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consider a drill press rig, if you don't mind building things..
you'll be able to cut softer and harder metals.

coil and then cut. this whole thread takes a simple operation and turns it into a complicated one.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:07 am
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truly though i can also see how it could get complicated. the device if i get the plans...or a working prototype soon should be able to do both though not necessarily coil and while coiling cut...

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