Goodbye to M.A.I.L.
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Joined: January 10, 2009
Posts: 615
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Goodbye to M.A.I.L.
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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:54 am
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I dislike the direction this site is moving and have chosen to delete my contributions. M.A.I.L. no longer has my permission to use my images or text in the Gallery or Weave database.

Many of you are wonderful folks, and I wish you much happiness.

For those of my friends who chose to follow me, I will be found on Legba's wonderful site, http://corvuschainmaille.ning.com If you believe that maille is a creative, and not strictly technical endeavor, I look forward to seeing you there!

Joined: February 01, 2009
Posts: 466
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Location: Australia

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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:40 am
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Well I'll be sad to see you and anyone else in the same boat leave.

It's been pretty clear that the MAIL community is splitting into 2 groups for a while.

You say that maille is creative not technical and others might argue the opposite.
I think it is both and place equal importance in both camps.
Lets face it the majority of maille is decorative so visual appeal and prettiness of the final product is a high priority. But to achieve this you need to understand ring interactions and whatnot so technical stuff is required also.

I think both parties need to get on board and realise this and stop attacking each other.
MAIL is pretty one sided I believe because alot of the admins take the technical view instead of the joint view.

I personally believe MAIL should be more in the hands of the community rather than the BOD. More stuff should be put to a vote and when important stuff is discussed the membership should at least be able to give their input.

I myself am not looking to give much input or take directory role as I am happy simply reading posts and continuing to learn. However I have noticed the more and more common unhappiness and have wondered if the current setup of MAIL is really what the mailling community wants.

I've noticed even cynake, lorenzo, phong etc seem to be bringing up new topics on the TRL forum rather than here.

If maillers are unhappy and leaving or using other forums over what is supposed to be the chief mailling comunity in existence then something needs to be addressed.

This is just my opinion raised to try and pre-emt the migration.

Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 1031
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Location: Sacromento (Area), CA.

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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:13 pm
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WWOOWW, what is going on? what do you mean "2 groups"? Have I really been addicted to FaceBook for so long that I missed something here? is there a thread that explains what is going on?

Joined: August 14, 2007
Posts: 1391
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Location: arkansas

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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:14 pm
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I'm sorry that you feel the need to completely leave MAIL. I'm not sure what happened.

I will try to get to Legba's site every so often, but I really don't have the energy to devote full attention to two forums and this is where I spend most of my time. I will be especially sad to not be able to see your beautiful work. You are one of the people on here who is very creative and utilizes the metals in such interesting ways. You have been very inspiring to many people here.



Joined: October 19, 2009
Posts: 31
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Location: Boston

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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:36 pm
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I have lurked on this site and others for several years now, content simply to read and learn. But at this point, I’m pitching in my $0.02 – I find the attacks and criticisms repeatedly lodged at Cynake, Phong, et al. offensive. The level of immaturity and vindictive behavior has really reached a peak.

There are folks who are far more well-spoken and reasoned than others…and I think it’s a cop out to suggest that because one may choose not to think and communicate clearly, one is a “creative” and therefore should not be held accountable for the choice of one’s words. We are nothing without language. I also think it’s a cop out to lash out on those who do choose to communicate and discuss clearly, and constantly interpret calm rational questions as attacks. I look forward to reading posts by Cynake and Phong because I truly enjoy their logical approaches (and sense of humor) – I also look forward to viewing creations by folks in the Gallery. I don’t think this site has to be approached exclusively left- or right-brained – there are things to satisfy both (and why wouldn’t one want to satisfy both?). The fact that this site is intended as a “resource”, though, necessitates effective communication. Why not learn how to communicate effectively instead of running away when ideas are challenged? A challenge is not always an attack, as some appear to believe.

There are folks who use this and other sites for ego-stroking…questions/critiques are not tolerated – that is a shame. I would expect folks to have the fortitude to accept and participate in discussion and critiques. I began mailing years ago…when I first started out, my pieces were crap – I showed them to folks, compared my work with that of others, and WELCOMED honest criticism and advisement…I learned, and thanks to the advice and my own analyses, now create things that are quite beautiful. I would not have benefited from disingenuous compliments…those would have accomplished nothing. I genuinely enjoy learning and benefitting from the advice and thoughtful remarks of others…I would have expected to see this across the board.

We all have different backgrounds, stabilities, personal issues…but this site is intended as a resource, not as an e-armchair. It seems evident that some folks believe their personal situations should afford them carte blanche to behave however they wish without being called out for it – that is simply unreasonable. One’s personal problems are just that – ONE’S problems. If you need to find friends or validation online, fine…but pushing those sorts of motivations onto an educational resource is at the very least embarrassing, and counter-productive. And attacking those who strive to maintain standards and intelligent discourse? Sad.

Why are some folks threatened by logic and thought? Why is irrational behavior being touted as defensible and acceptable? It really is a shame…I think some folks might benefit from taking a breather, and rereading posts…they might find that any “attack” was actually just in their own mind. I think there are two divisive motivations at work here – one to feed one’s ago/create drama, and one to learn/discuss.

As a side note, I don’t believe that M.A.I.L. would benefit from removing responsibilities from the BOD and placing them at the hands of membership as a whole. Members already have plenty of avenues to voice thoughts and opinions. The key is communicating those thoughts and opinions effectively. I think there must be a set group of knowledgeable folks who discuss and employ standards, rules, in well-thought-out means. I do not believe that “votes” by anyone and everyone will at all accomplish this (particularly when there are ego-driven motivations, instead of the genuine desire to build and maintain something of value).

Joined: April 15, 2002
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Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:24 pm
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AdrianHills wrote:
It's been pretty clear that the MAIL community is splitting into 2 groups for a while.


It has been splitting because a group of people suddenly decided they liked each other better, and would treat others differently. This created quite a stir a couple months ago.

Quote:
You say that maille is creative not technical and others might argue the opposite. I think it is both and place equal importance in both camps.


I don't think anyone is arguing the opposite.

What has begun happening with increasing frequency, is that some people are trying to make it seem that way, so that they can seem oppressed. They put words in people's mouths to make them seem more aggressive than they are, and then run away and play victim.

They are defending themselves against non-existing things.

What CW is talking about here, is when I said that a weave database is a technical thing. It's taxonomy. Sorting things into categories, and using spacial recognition. By definition, that is a technical thing, not a creative thing. So it does not make sense to apply a creative solution to a technical problem.

That's all. Just the classification of weaves into the weave database being a technical task. Not the gallery, not the articles, not the forums. Not that creating new weaves is a technical task. Not that creative people aren't welcome. Not that making chainmail is a technical task (it's not). Not any of the things she tries to make it seem.

All that happened is that she couldn't tolerate someone disagreeing with her, and didn't want to come up with criteria of her own, so she left.

And for disclosure, where did she leave to? A lovely place she likes beter than here? No. Another community that Legba runs, where Legba (who quit MAIL yesterday under the same blown-out-of-proportion, exaggerated victim circumstances when her bullying failed), has made her an admin, where she gets to do what she wants.

It's just petty and political.

Quote:
Lets face it the majority of maille is decorative so visual appeal and prettiness of the final product is a high priority. But to achieve this you need to understand ring interactions and whatnot so technical stuff is required also.

I think both parties need to get on board and realise this and stop attacking each other.


See, but, no one has claimed that, and there is no eachother. It's one sided. Try to find someone who believes maille is a technical thing. You won't find it anywhere, because no one has said it. Categorizing weaves in a consistent system, is technical.

CW's exiting barbs make it seem like she's fighting against people claiming otherwise, so that anyone who creates anything will sympathize and say "Oh no, that's not how I want things to be!" and support her. But, her opposition doesn't exist.

The only people attacking, are Legba and her friends. Anyone who disagrees with them becomes their enemy, who they perceive as attacking them.

But it's entirely one-sided. And the things they defend against are imaginary.

Quote:
MAIL is pretty one sided I believe because alot of the admins take the technical view instead of the joint view.


The right solution for the right problem.

Most of the admins are very creative people. They just don't think that how you feel about something, or how pretty something looks, is good criteria for all types of problem solving.

Even a very right-brained person should be able to identify that some problems do not work well with a right-brained solution. Whatever your viewpoint, trying to shove a square peg into a round hole will fail.

I lean left more than right, and more technical than creative. But I don't go suggesting that we should use a formula, or a list of criteria to judge contests by. I think that would be ridiculous.

Quote:
I personally believe MAIL should be more in the hands of the community rather than the BOD. More stuff should be put to a vote and when important stuff is discussed the membership should at least be able to give their input.


Hrm, you have to be careful how you do that. Popularity contests are poor ways of deciding many things. But, okay. What would you like to see more in the hands of the general membership?

I can't think of anything in the past that the BOD decided against the membership on, or tried to decide without any input. Can you think of any examples?

Quote:
I've noticed even cynake, lorenzo, phong etc seem to be bringing up new topics on the TRL forum rather than here.


Hrm. You're new here. Some history...

MAIL was born out of The Chainmaille Board, when the crazy, alcoholic, moral-less owner there wanted absolute control over everything. You weren't allowed to mention competitors, etc. He swore to do everything in his power to make MAIL fail. MAIL split off and took a chunk of the community with it.

Then, there were three big communities. TRL, MAIL, and TCB. TCB eventually folded.

MAIL lost it's domain registration the next year and the website didn't exist for a bit (and came back under a different domain, "mailleartisans.org" instead of "mailartisans.org"), so a big chunk of the membership headed over to TRL, not even knowing what'd happened.

A couple years after that, MAIL was on some awful servers, and for months at a time was inaccessible or you had to refresh several times to get any pages to load. This was, circa, maybe 2005 or so? 2006?

Then TCB shut down after Charles started paying the liquor store in lieu of his hosting bills.

So, at one point, everyone was on TRL.

When MAIL came back reliably online after a server change, people kinda stuck to what they were familiar with. MAIL became a place to learn and teach, and a place filled with newbies, but if you wanted experienced people to discuss things with, the crowd was at TRL.

I used to post mostly on MAIL, but I started dabbling on TRL, and noticed I got a lot better feedback, and more interesting discussion over there. I presume most other people did too. This was as MAIL was still rebuilding a membership base.

If my memory serves, Phong was quite active on MAIL before the servers started dying. Since then, like most people with accounts dating back before 2005, he's been on TRL. Phong hasn't been an admin here for even a year yet, and before becoming an admin, I don't think I'd seen him around at all, for a couple years.

Lorenzo works for TRL, and hasn't been active on either forums for several years. A few posts a year. Usually when he has anything to share, I've noticed he cross-posts.

The trend I'd say I've seen recently, is actually a lot of members who left MAIL in its troubled days, coming back.

There's certainly nothing nefarious or disgruntled about it. It's just a reflection of the communities.

Quote:
If maillers are unhappy and leaving or using other forums over what is supposed to be the chief mailling comunity in existence then something needs to be addressed.


Hrm. Well I don't know that MAIL is "supposed to be" the chief community. I'd sure like it to be, TRL is run by a business and at times limits what can be talked about.

One thing you are not seeing, is how many people left, or participate less, but didn't try to get attention over it or make a big deal about it. You're seeing a petty few who stir drama to try to garner sympathy.

There are a lot of people who give up and don't participate here anymore because of all the drama, because they don't get useful feedback, or they don't feel that they can do anything other than compliment someone, so why bother? You don't see all those people, but they're here. Lots of lurkers too.

When Legba created MWW, she said it was because she didn't like the other communities and wanted something different. There was discussion on this, and one of the points I made was, that she was an admin here, if there were problems here, why not address them rather than fracturing the community? She didn't want to and got very upset and snarky when discussing any part of it.

Legba created a thread on her website announcing how there was a conspiracy against her and a group of people who rage around, acting together to harass and attack people. She actually believes this. She believes it so strongly, she stopped even reading what people said, (like me) and attacked them for agreeing with and supporting her. Let alone attacking people who disagreed. Attacking people who defended her because in her mind, that's what those people do and she's a victim. It's almost comically absurd.

A couple months ago Legba started a thread here accusing everyone of this. And for this community being hostile to newbies, and for being cruel and thoughtless in how they judged their work. I asked for examples, again, and again, and again and again, and again. And no one gave any. I said dig up some threads, dig up some posts, show us an example of this behavior so that it could be changed.

Nadda. Nothing. Refused to support their claims. I kept bumping the thread asking for examples, outlining how important it was, and how.. now that they had everyone's attention, and had already stirred all the drama, that they needed to address it or it would only happen again and again.

Nothing. No feedback. No support.

*shrug*.

When someone believes something so blindly as to imagine it when they see the opposite.. what can you do?

Quote:
This is just my opinion raised to try and pre-emt the migration.


There isn't a migration. There's a few vocal, petty people who try to get attention by crying oppression where none exists.

MAIL is, and always will be friendly and helpful to newbies. And a place that nurtures and welcomes creativity in the art.

And a place that welcomes criticism and feedback. By all means, if you'd like to see something changed, or tweaked, or you see something wrong, speak up. Despite what some people try to make it seem, the BOD isn't an evil conspiracy. There's no money at stake here. It's a bunch of volunteers.

Joined: March 20, 2008
Posts: 2009
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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:44 pm
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All I want to ask for is a little brevity, it's not a god damn romance novel....It's a sweet potato. At least break them up a little.

Sad to see you go CW, but you and I will link up, and talk Wink

Joined: August 10, 2005
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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:39 pm
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Cynake - you're continued ranting about me, despite the fact that I have not replied to any post until now, shows nothing except that you are bitter and twisted and obviously have nothing better to do.
BTW that thread you mention was NOT started by me but by a well respected member of MAIL:
http://corvuschainmaille.ning.com/forum/topics/i-may-end-up-removing-my-voice
Please get your facts straight.

My admin status has been revoked (which is fine by me) but I consider it rude and typical that no one informed me of this.

Because of this please no one send me any more PMs regarding anything to do with admin matters, it is no longer my business.


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: December 22, 2007
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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:57 pm || Last edited by lorraine on Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Deleted


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: August 30, 2008
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Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:19 pm
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Legba3 wrote:
My admin status has been revoked (which is fine by me) but I consider it rude and typical that no one informed me of this.

Because of this please no one send me any more PMs regarding anything to do with admin matters, it is no longer my business.


Yes, that was me... Sorry it was done without a heads up... In fact, I'll probably take serious flack from the rest of the BOD over it... I should have PM'd you... Hell, I should've consulted them, however...

You stepped down, rather vocally, the other day... Which is fine, that's your right... However, as I was checking in this morning while getting ready to head out the door to work, I noticed a bunch of your database deletes...

You're either a member of the BOD or you're not... You can't step down, and then two days later show up and delete things (or approve deletes pending in the Admin Panel)... We can't have a rogue element with Admin powers, doing as they see fit...

So yes, I was out of line. As I was running out the door, I toggled your status, and fully intended to PM you about it... However, as with many things that occur as you're in a rush... It slipped by the wayside, and for that I am sorry.

Now I'm at work, and I've had a chance to catch up on the daily happenings, I find I am too late to head things off at the pass, and am making this notice publically... So be it.

As for the rest of it, it will all come out in the wash. I don't believe I overstepped my bounds in heading off what I percieved as a dangerous situation happening. If others believe I did overstep, I will make retribution as is nessecary.



Joined: August 10, 2005
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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:44 pm
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The only deletes I made were requested by the submitting member. Any member has a right to have their own work removed.


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: August 30, 2008
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Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:47 pm
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Legba3 wrote:
The only deletes I made were requested by the submitting member. Any member has a right to have their own work removed.


Of course they do! We don't hold peoples submissions hostage! Coif LoL

However, they still queue up, to be approved by a BOD member. Any of us could have, and would have approved it.
You didn't need to, and since you'd 'quit'... Probably shouldn't have.

As I said, what I did was probably not the best way to handle things, in fact it was likely the worst... But it was the fastest.



Joined: April 15, 2002
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Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:53 pm
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Legba3 wrote:
Cynake - you're continued ranting about me, despite the fact that I have not replied to any post until now, shows nothing except that you are bitter and twisted and obviously have nothing better to do.


???

Good. Great. Whatever. You think you're a victim, I get it. You're trying to convince me of motivations I don't have. Won't work.

Get it out of your head that I'm some oppressor to you. Adrian made a comment, I replied to it. The world isn't about you.

Quote:
BTW that thread you mention was NOT started by me but by a well respected member of MAIL:
http://corvuschainmaille.ning.com/forum/topics/i-may-end-up-removing-my-voice
Please get your facts straight.


Get your own facts straight. And read what people write. You already said this to me the last time you brought it up, so I'll just repeat now what I told you then:

http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?p=189860#189860 <--

"[Legba]I will also point out that the longest thread on MWW (as you put it) was not started by me but by another MAIL member who felt the need to vent.

[Cynake]Strange. Maybe I'm seeing things or me not being a member shows me something different. Same page I linked earlier. I see this as the thread starter and first post, (actually, you're the two first posts): "Corvus (Legba3) Why I no longer care for TRL's forum
* Posted by Corvus (Legba3) on May 9, 2009 at 11:39am in Chat."

Quote:
My admin status has been revoked (which is fine by me) but I consider it rude and typical that no one informed me of this.


You quit. I don't see why you think you're entitled to keep admin privileges after quitting and wanting nothing to do with the website. And I don't see why anyone would have to inform you of you quitting. You told *us* you were quitting.

Jebus. Now you're trying to make it seem like you're being oppressed some more? That you got thrown out and, oh, *NOW* you're no longer interested in doing administrator things?

You quit.

Joined: August 10, 2005
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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:41 pm
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I do not feel oppressed or victimized, I just feel sorry for you.


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: April 15, 2002
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Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

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Posted on Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:53 pm
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Legba3 wrote:
I do not feel oppressed or victimized, I just feel sorry for you.


Ohhhh, okay. My bad. I guess I was wrong about your intentions. Thank you for your concern. I'll get through it okay though.

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