Non maille articles
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Articles Discussion
   

As a member of M.A.I.L. do you think non-maille articles should be approved?
Yes
84%
 84%  [ 16 ]
No
15%
 15%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 19

Author Message

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:55 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

as long as wire were running under the same sort of finiancial principles as mail (non profit), it would be great to have a prominent link exchange. (pending bod approval)

yes, let's avoid nasty splits. i don't think it is an issue. there is no reason for mail to not want wire to succeed.

good luck volunteer people!

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: October 27, 2006
Posts: 1155
Submissions: 3
Location: Boise, ID

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:59 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

I wish to have no profit from this at all. I'm donating space and time for this to work Wink. There shouldn't be a nasty split either. It would seem that people are absolutely fine with the idea..

Joined: April 15, 2002
Posts: 1823
Submissions: 1
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:29 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Deirdre wrote:
I don't know, and it doesn't matter what they would do. We're not talking about them, we're talking about MAIL.


Ahh. Yes that's true. My point wasn't "these sites are the same as MAIL." My point was that the situation was common between the two communities, and there is something to be observed or learned by looking at a very similar example. Mainly, that related arts that are enjoyed by many people in two communities don't necessarily belong together, as they each have their own focus.

Quote:
By that rational almost none of the articles under Jewelry belong here.


Hrm. No, by that logic they do still belong here. I think I'm being consistent.

Quote:
There are tutorials on how to wrap beads to use with maille, how to wrap stones in wire to make pendants, as well as several tutorials on different clasps. Clasps are not maille, and are in fact wire work. Should we throw them out? Learning how to wrap beads to include in maille is wire work, should we throw those out too?


No, we shouldn't throw most of them out. I don't see an inconsistency.

Clasps are a method by which you join pieces of maille jewelry together. How is that not at all related to maille?

Pendants.. hrm. Pendants are pushing it. I might axe those. They're not really a part of maille or required for maille, as a pendant is kinda like an "extra" or a piece of it's own you add to a piece of maille. You could make pendants out of anything.. and I don't see anything special about wire-wrap pendants than any other kind. An article for how to make a generic tip of a pendant, which attaches to maille, passes.. if there's a particular method that allows it to hang straight off a maille necklace or be securely fastened, etc.

Incorporating beads into maille requires specific skills and knowledge. Those all pass. Aderamelach's "Adapting Beads To Use In Maille" is *exactly* the kind of thing I just mentioned in my previous post as belonging on MAIL.

"How to make a beadwork bracelet", or "How to weave beads into hair" would not. They in no way involve maille. They're beadwork items that belong on a beadwork site.

Quote:
My understanding is that we are talking about allowing related wire work content, not all wire work. For instance, I would think that an article on how to weave a basket out of straight wire would not be maille related, but an article on how to weave or wrap a pendant out of wire would be, because it can be adapted.


Well, my argument for pendants above, though, that's maybe a bad example. Baskets I'd agree. As above, I'm not saying throw away most of that jewelry content. I'd agree it should be kept.

If we're talking about allowing related wire work content, then you and I agree. Read what I wrote. I labored to emphasize in both posts that I was specifically *not* against content that involves adapting maille or using other arts with maille, as long as it has maille at its core.

Quote:
Interesting statement. To which I say, "so what?" MAIL is a democracy, yes? Isn't it the responsibility of those elected to run a democracy to listen to the people, and to enact change when a majority of them want change? Are we saying that only polls started by the BOD should be given any value?


No, did I say that?

I said it was non-binding.

Meaning, it's not like our hands are now tied and, also meaning, it's not like "The Membership Has Spoken." There's a reason the rules for making changes to the site involved details like making stickied polls in well-trafficed areas with big obvious titles like "MEMBERSHIP VOTE", or "ISSUE Poll", and for specific lengths of time, and announcements on the front page. There's a reason it proceeds through debate and discussion, then a vote once that's wound down. It's so that when the membership has spoken, we can actually tell. A little interest poll with 10 votes in the articles forum is not really that.

This was in reply to the "Well it seems pretty clear we're going to have to do this" type of comments coming in.

And, also note that I waived any major objection off anyway and said going by the rules probably wasn't necessary.

Quote:
Are you suggesting we'd be driving people away?


Is the existing weave database or articles setup driving people away? No. But that doesn't mean it's the best it could be.

Whether people leave or stay doesn't matter so much as whether we're doing the best we can. MAIL is for maille. If we would dilute that, it would lessen people's enjoyment of the site, and add more chaff to the wheat. For a few people, who want both, it's better.

If it really is so dominant a desire, then I want to go a step further than "just allowing it, as long as it stays small." If that's what the community wants, lets do it then. Lets say MAIL is about maille and wire art and embrace both. And, if there's more in common, okay. Lets add that too.

I just think it's inconsistent to pursue a purpose where it's only okay as long as it's small and no one really notices. If we're going to pursue it, lets take a stand on it, whatever that is.

Quote:
You're right, most likely a poll on sword making being allowed or plate armor construction would both be approved, and I agree they don't belong here. Although, an article on making a sword hilt wrapped in maille, or a scabbard with maille decoration would be allowed, or some such thing as long as maille was involved, or the item could be adapted to incorporate maille or be incorporated with.


I'm a bit sticky on the phrasing of "could be adapted", that's a little too open ended, but, if I get your point, we agree.

Quote:
I don't think anyone is saying open the floodgates and let all wire work in;


Yes, they are. Well, it depends on how much you want to sensationalize what people have said. No one's said that maille should get taken over by some other artform.

Everyone so far has been quite clear in that they do not want MAIL to be dominantly about anything other than maille. They do however, seem to differ from you and I, in that they want sections and pictures allowed of, say, 100% non-maille projects, made of wire art. Because they like it and find it interesting, and don't know where else to share that. They appear to be speaking of a passive connection between the arts only, as a requirement.

Anon, who posted the articles, said: "I would like to see a section for non-maille wire art", and "I would like to see wire-working articles, but in their own section so as not to detract from maille, as I feel there is a certain overlap in the materials, tools and techniques used, and so information from other forms of wire-working would be easily available, (and might be of relevance to some in making maille)"

Drac0 said: "The way I look at it is that it uses the same material that Maille does, wire. It may not be strictly maille, but I feel that as long as we don't let too many articles like that in, or add another category for it instead it wouldn't take away from the main ideals of M.A.I.L"

Jazzer said: "sure it isn't maille, but wire work and maille is virtually the same thing if you want to look at it that way. plus, the whole point of this site is to encourage creativity and spread knowledge of maille, wouldn't it just be an added bonus to through in some other stuff on the side (as long as maille was the main thing)?"

... to which I'm interpreting the comments of "main ideals" and "the main thing", NOT being that those articles pertain to maille, but that they be entirely for wire art or whatnot.. restrained, and off to the side, only so that MAIL doesn't get swamped with them. To combat this, Anon further suggested a quota system, so that non-maille could never outgrow maille.

...

All of which is fine. That's what they'd like to be able to do with MAIL. I happen to disagree with them, so, that's what I've been talking about.

Quote:
Frankly I'm teetering on the fence on the Ring Jig that started all of this. Part of me thinks it's super cool, but most of me doesn't see how you could adapt it to maille, so I'm leaning more towards it being out. On the other hand, it doesn't mean it can't be adapted by someone somewhere, so maybe it should stay. *shrug* Having a new catagory to throw these very few submissions we get into would be helpful, and also help us clean up some of the clutter in the gallery.


*nod*. I'm of the same thinking. And, my vote would be pretty clearly, out. It takes something like wire-wrapping pendants to put me as close to not deciding as you are on this issue. I'm a bit further down the line than you, though not much. A ring jig is for making turks head rings. It's neat. But it's not maille.. and it's a pretty far stretch to try to work it into maille.. as it's such a specific thing. An article on how to make solid band wedding rings is on par, in my mind... because it's also just a ring that, who knows, might be used with maille, but probably not.

Wire-art receives no special mention in my mind just because it and chainmaille both come from wire. Maybe.. except in the case of clasps, since you're specifically looking for the merger between sheet- or chain-edge to wire art, for completion of a maille project. Wire art on its own.. doesn't cut the mustard. A jig for creating wire art on it's own, is even less likely to pass.

I'd love to see all the wire art communities get together and start their own site though. I do find it interesting.

Joined: April 15, 2002
Posts: 1823
Submissions: 1
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:34 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Jebus. Spend a half hour typing and plans for a sister-site already go into place. :p

Best of luck guys. Maybe contact the heads of all the other wire-art communities you can find (when you're ready), and try to amalgamate them.

A wiki would probably serve your purpose quite nicely. It's also a great community-forming core, as everyone has something to share, and they do it right as they're seeking to learn.

Joined: October 27, 2006
Posts: 1155
Submissions: 3
Location: Boise, ID

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:53 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Does a sister site offend you? People seem to be agreeing. With a sister site we can keep Maille related stuff on MAIL and non-related stuff on WIRE. Wouldn't it make it a tad easier to handle, than having to have a debate about whether or not to let an article through? At least this way we wouldn't debate about it and it could just be put onto the WIRE website.

Joined: April 15, 2002
Posts: 1823
Submissions: 1
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:15 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

drac0 wrote:
Does a sister site offend you? People seem to be agreeing. With a sister site we can keep Maille related stuff on MAIL and non-related stuff on WIRE. Wouldn't it make it a tad easier to handle, than having to have a debate about whether or not to let an article through? At least this way we wouldn't debate about it and it could just be put onto the WIRE website.


Offend me? No, why would it offend me?

I completely support people building a website and community surrounded wire art.

I don't want all traces of wire art eradicated from MAIL. In fact, I think our existing standards have been pretty much spot on... though we might need a catch-all category for non-maille things that involve maille at their core (as above).

I have a comfort level with the degree of integration between MAIL and WIRE (or WAIL, or whatever).

I'm fine with WIRE using the MAIL chatroom to get and stay organized until WIRE brings its own forums online. I don't see any reason for a bad split in the slightest.

I'm not too big a fan of using MAIL resources or admins on WIRE, especially as, provided the wiki goes forward, we're probably going to be quite busy ourselves. Not as default duties, individuals are of course free to act as they'd please.

I don't want to see articles or pictures being submitted to MAIL in the short term, no. Getting a website off the ground shouldn't be too hard (or, if it is, the situation is likely to be permanent)... so.. I say get it built, use MAIL to communicate as that's going, and then when you get your system online, got nuts, flesh it out.

If any articles on MAIL want to expand on what they've written, and provide links to WIRE, that is great, no differently than we do now.

MAIL isn't big on sources or "Go here for more info" and the like, that might change when some of our content goes wiki.

Joined: October 27, 2006
Posts: 1155
Submissions: 3
Location: Boise, ID

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:35 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Point taken and I see where you're coming from. Either way, i'm going to go for it and see what happens with it, it may or may not get off the ground, we shall see.

Joined: June 17, 2007
Posts: 532
Submissions: 21

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:09 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Please note I started typing this about 5 hours ago (interruptions) so its horribly out of contewxt time wise ....


Hiya,

I'm sorry if it appears I'm trying to have the issue resolved by a vote ...
I'm not, the poll was only intended to provide the admins with
information to help them decide on the issue. I suspect that they are
much better informed as to the likely consequences of their decision,
one factor that I thought would help them make an informed decision
is knowing how the general membership felt, and that was what this
poll was about.

I have been surprised by the results of the poll so far, I had expected
a closer result, but as Cynake has pointed out support may be easier to
get than opposition, though I would say that I would expect those who vehemently disapprove would make themselves heard,

on that note at the moment the poll is 10/0,
Cynake if I'm understanding your post correctly you don't think
non-maille articles should be approved (I tend to think that a non-maille
article would be one that contains no maille, not one that contains some
maille and some non-maille)... have you voted in the poll? (not trying
to have a go, just I'd like to understand the discrepancy, of course I
might be misunderstanding your post)

The other thing is the poll isn't specifically about the ring jig (or at least not for me)

IF the poll results indicate that members would like to see non-maille articles

and IF the admins decide to approve non-maille articles

the ring jig may still not be approved as it may not be deemed maille related enough ... that will depend on which side on the line the admins will need to draw when deciding which articles to approve...

hence the
Quote:
It might also help if you can state where you think the line should be drawn ...


this thread was intended to provide a spot for members to state their views so the admins could use that as input for their decisions.

Laughing

oh well those were my intentions anyway ...

as for my wire-working articles, if the ring jig is approved I had planned to do a wire-twisting rig article, a twisted wire article (which could at a stretch be used to make rings for maille, but I'd be reluctant to try using that as a justification if articles are to be maille only) and then a simple turk's head knot ring article and then a advanced article covering design variations. at that point I think I would have run out of what I'd consider non-maille articles, (I'm also thinking of doing a poor-man's tumbler article if I can't find anything similar, but that's something that I consider to be of enough relevance to the jewelery side of mail making to submit even if the policy is maille articles only whit the expectation that it would be approved. sadly I'm no deep font of knowledge ... i started mailling this Easter, (sorry for stirring this up so soon) I'm just curious and willing to shoot my mouth off about what I've learnt Smile so there is no huge collection of knowledge waiting to inundate the site from me ... (but that's not really the issue)


Maille Code V2.0 T5.4 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg$i C$p G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N16.16 Pt Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 Hc
Articles - Byzantine Speed Weaving - Poor Man's Tumbler - Ring Jig - Turk's Head Knot Ring - Wire Winding
Maille - Belt - Choker w. Padlock - Collar - Collar with Twist - Cuffs - Cuff 2 - Decorative Chains - DS Belt - Maille Cuffs - Micro Ring - T Shirt - Vambrace - Watch Band - Watch Chain
Non-maille - Ring - Ring Mk II

Joined: June 17, 2007
Posts: 532
Submissions: 21

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:58 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Okies ... what I plan to do ...

I won't submit any articles/threads on wire-art until a decision is made. I'll continue to work on the articles + pics etc, but not post them.

Once a clear plan is made the articles will be made available to the appropriate source (M.A.I.L. or W.I.R.E. or whatever)

In the mean time if anyone is interested in information on any of the planned articles I've mentioned please pm me, as I prepare the articles I'll e-mail them to you to read and comment on (hopefully letting me improve the finished product)

That way hopefully I won't muddy the waters any further, and at the same time those interested won't be denied access to the information while
a decision is being made.

If anyone thinks I should do something different please pm me ...


Its funny how this all started ...
I posted it a version of the ring jig as a thread because I didn't think it was appropriate as an article, others suggested doing an article e.g.

Cynake said
Quote:
This is superb. Please submit this as an article!

That was a lot of pictures and must have taken a long time. Very methodical. No missed steps.

I might try my hand at one of these soon, now.


now we seem to have both changed out minds ... Coif LoL

end of the day wire art is just a passing fancy for me, I'll do what I can to support M.A.I.L. I can't honestly say the same for wire-art, I'll post (in what ever form is deemed appropriate) what I've learnt but it's not much, and I don't think I'll spend as much time on a wire-art site as I do on M.A.I.L.

Hopefully there are others who have the passion to create a useful resource for those interested in wire-art.


Maille Code V2.0 T5.4 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg$i C$p G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N16.16 Pt Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 Hc
Articles - Byzantine Speed Weaving - Poor Man's Tumbler - Ring Jig - Turk's Head Knot Ring - Wire Winding
Maille - Belt - Choker w. Padlock - Collar - Collar with Twist - Cuffs - Cuff 2 - Decorative Chains - DS Belt - Maille Cuffs - Micro Ring - T Shirt - Vambrace - Watch Band - Watch Chain
Non-maille - Ring - Ring Mk II

Joined: April 15, 2002
Posts: 1823
Submissions: 1
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:23 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

anon wrote:
on that note at the moment the poll is 10/0,
Cynake if I'm understanding your post correctly you don't think
non-maille articles should be approved (I tend to think that a non-maille
article would be one that contains no maille, not one that contains some
maille and some non-maille)... have you voted in the poll? (not trying
to have a go, just I'd like to understand the discrepancy, of course I
might be misunderstanding your post)


You are correct. My opinion is that an entirely-to-maille article or gallery item about wire art (or anything else) should not be approved.

I have not voted in the poll, no. I rarely vote until discussion winds down. My reasoning is that my opinion might easily be changed by something someone says in discussion.. and, I also have a fear of, if I vote, then I might feel like I have a particular stance to "defend." I'm rather cowardly in my opinions :p

I will probably vote NO. No one's really bringing up new considerations or evidence, this has been mostly talk of preferences, so, I don't expect to be changing.

Quote:
IF the poll results indicate that members would like to see non-maille articles and IF the admins decide to approve non-maille articles


Which will likely be the case. If admins go against the membership, they'd almost certainly not do so directly, they'd just set up a broader poll to see if it was consistent and/or as dominant as it appeared.

Quote:
hence the: "It might also help if you can state where you think the line should be drawn ..." this thread was intended to provide a spot for members to state their views so the admins could use that as input for their decisions.

oh well those were my intentions anyway ...


Admins sometimes unnecessarily confine discussion to the Admin forum, if for no other reason than that there's not really an appropriate venue elsewhere for debate on administration issues. There wasn't really any reason in this case that Admins needed to talk amongst themselves, as soon as it became a larger issue.

When it comes down to it, Admins are just normal members with the self-imposed burden of duties, and usually above-average experience with maille and site issues. We're probably better able to decide on an issue, but, by no means are the good ideas or thoughts redistricted to us. We should probably be slumming it up with you normal members more often Smile

It's been a good thread, helps to know where people stand and why.

Joined: April 15, 2002
Posts: 1823
Submissions: 1
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:28 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

anon wrote:
Cynake said
"This is superb. Please submit this as an article!

That was a lot of pictures and must have taken a long time. Very methodical. No missed steps.

I might try my hand at one of these soon, now."

now we seem to have both changed out minds ... Coif LoL


*laughs*. I was looking for that, couldn't find it. I said in the admin thread that I was pretty sure this was all my fault Razz

That was the difference between me acting as a member, and as a BOD member. I thought it would be awesome to have a Turk's head tutorial on the site, 'cause I'm quite interested in it.. and then.. while on the BOD, I had to take some time and really think about all that that meant. Razz

Sorry for the runabout Sad

Joined: June 17, 2007
Posts: 532
Submissions: 21

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:15 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Not a prob, you are entirely correct IMO that what you can do/say as a member does not always match up with what you can do/say when you are in a position of responsibility. as for the voting, listening to all sides of a issue before deciding is a good thing Smile

as for the "runaround" i hope it's been beneficial in working out what is and isn't appropriate article wise.


Maille Code V2.0 T5.4 R4.5 Eo.p Fj12.2 MFe.s Wg$i C$p G0.5-1.5 I1.2-10.8 N16.16 Pt Dcejt Xa6g14 S07 Hc
Articles - Byzantine Speed Weaving - Poor Man's Tumbler - Ring Jig - Turk's Head Knot Ring - Wire Winding
Maille - Belt - Choker w. Padlock - Collar - Collar with Twist - Cuffs - Cuff 2 - Decorative Chains - DS Belt - Maille Cuffs - Micro Ring - T Shirt - Vambrace - Watch Band - Watch Chain
Non-maille - Ring - Ring Mk II

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 3 of 3. Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
All times are GMT. The time now is Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:37 pm
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Articles Discussion
Display posts from previous: