help removing topic & abuse of power
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Joined: February 29, 2004
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Posted on Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:02 pm
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On my board (unmodified phpbbs) it?s possible in the settings that create an area to sunset threads that haven?t been posted in in x-number of days. Set at two or three weeks only the items that haven?t sold would still be around and then only if we establish that bumping to say ?it?s still available? is OK. That would be spelled out in the rules. We could put a limit on the bumping in the rules, say three times. We?d have to depend on our members to obey the rules or risk being blocked from posting in that area. Threads that get bumped abusively would get pulled (thread deleted to avoid similar events to those that started this discussion) and would lead to a ?speaking to? via PM. It would be fairly easy, if time consuming, for an admin to go down through the list to see how many bump posts each thread has. If four (or whatever we decide is the cutoff +1) then boom! it?s gone regardless of time left on the clock from the original post. Naturally posts to answer questions about the item would not count against the bump quota.

Note to self: Establish this in the rules at own board.


"Do not go where the path may lead,
go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

My blog: The (New) Eclectic Dragonfly. Some of my stuff at CafePress!

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:14 pm
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so, i guess my question is.. is there anyone who is opposed to a trading forum?

and, is there anyone opposed for me fishing for opinions / suggestions among the general membership? no need to even put up a poll. no need for us to even discuss it in that thread.. just, "what are your thoughts"..?

i feel like i haven't seen much opposition.. and i have seen a bit of support for this idea... hmm.. i have seen a couple comments.. blaises for example, that mention possible drawbacks to a forum like this.. i would be interested in hearing those drawbacks.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:03 am
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from cynake via PM.
====================
Yeah, mysteriously, as of almost immediately after my last visible post in the "Abuse of power" thread, I've lost all moderating powers for all forums, as well as posting privaledges in the admin forums. I'm still showing up as an admin with admin credentials, but for all intents and purposes, I'm a normal member. I haven't tried to take any admin actions like approving submissions, and while I can still *see* the admin interface components, I suspect acting on them would fail too.

In regards to the trading forum, I'm mostly opposed to it, or at least, I see more things to be opposed about than in support of. I'm not really interested in participating in a discussion where my comments are relayed by proxy and lagged, and.. PM isn't really the way to go if I was, as PMs seem to be skewed at the same time. I'll hop in and voice my opinion whenever we figured out what caused this, and restore it.
================


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:10 pm
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unless someone is opposed, i'm going to open up discussion about this in the knitting circle tomorrow, (saturday jan 14)

if there is one objection, i won't.

but, i think we should at least get membership opinion on this before we make a move... for clarification, i'm not saying my opinion is -the way-.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:04 pm
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well, i asked for opinions and i got a lot of them.

now, would this qualify as a change to the site or discussion board, and need a membership vote?

the opinion fishing thread has now become somewhat of a circular discussion.

perhaps it is time for a vote, either in here, if it is not a big enough site change.. or for the membership, if it is..

either way i would be in favor of a simple vote, worded something like this:

should MAIL add a trading forum?
o yes
o no

none of that complicated hoo-haw i suggested before.. this is cut and dry.. if it passes, then we can hammer out rules and such.

at one point we discussed votes starting on a friday morning (thursday night for us americans) and ending on a monday night.. or something along those lines.. so that a vote ran 2 weekends.. so, perhaps this friday? or next friday? either way, with the amount of time it takes for things to happen, i'd like to start this ball rolling.

the big question is -where-? in here or in the knitting circle?

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: March 04, 2003
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Posted on Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:23 pm
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here is what I think,

There seems to be enough interest in the membership to hold a vote to add a trading room. I think the subject is important enough to have the membership decide, and the BOD take care of the details if it does indeed pass.

I think the vote should be at least one week in duration, to allow those who don't get in here that often to vote. perhaps a friday to friday.

I also would like to suggest that we give a little more time for discussion on the subject. by that, I mean members posting, *yes, I want a room for such and such a reason.* or *No, it's not a good idea for such and such a reason.* Short, Sweet, and TO THE POINT. I would like to put a halt on the *You're a butthead because you said this and this* and back and forth AdNauseum. That gets old. I want to see folks reasons for their yes or no, not a He said, I said bicker-fest.

the vote should be placed in the knitting circle, and stuck at the top, as that is the most visited room on the forum. An announcement should be made in bold and caps on the front page to inform folks of the voting going on inside.

The wording of the vote should be clear,

"Should MAIL add a trading room to the forum?

(O) Yes *if passed the BOD will be responisble for creating, instituting, and monitoring any rules associated with this room.*

(O) No *Nuff said, No room*

There should be a time limit set to pass before this subject can be brought up for a vote again. I don't remember if we ever made such a guidline, but I think there should be at least one year before the subject can be brought up for another vote if it was not passed.

And I think that about covers my two pence worth. Smile


Rygar
http://home.roadrunner.com/~chainreaction

"I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it."

--Terry Pratchett

Joined: April 29, 2002
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Posted on Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:32 pm
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I think a vote is a good idea, but we don't technically need it. We make changes to the site/board all the time on our own authority.

That said, a public vote will raise awareness, and air any grievances, so I say Do what Rygar said.


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

George Bernard Shaw
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Posted on Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:50 pm
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I know I'm a new admin and all so my opinion may not count for a whole lot, but I agree; do what Ryger said.

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:29 pm
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deidre, you're a BOD member.. we don't have any sort of extra heirarchy here.

i'm good with everything rygar's said.

i still like the idea of 2 weekends for voting (fri-mon), as a general practice.. but i'm not stuck on the idea.

blaise, iirc, you wrote the charter for us.. what did you mean by "website/discussion board redesign"? i must be interpreting that incorrectly. does that mean.. for example, if we wanted to join with trl and use their message board for MAIL..? or, if we wanted to utilize a search function for the weaves library.. (tess put up a member vote for that..) something like that..? thanks for helping me to understand this.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: November 20, 2003
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Posted on Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:38 pm
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Blaise, according to the charter, major decisons, such as a large site redesign or addition, require membership approval. That's why the weaves redesign vote went up. The little things you say you do all the time are probably not classified as "major". Also I agree with Rygar that there needs to be an established time limit / vote participation both for things to pass and before they can be brought up. Charter changes already say they need to have a certain number of members voting, but the rest don't. I never put up a deadline for my weaves change vote, but the participation is approaching 10% of active posting members. It looks like a good majority so it could probably be stopped then, but I'm just not comfortable with going by something like that without a set guideline. I don't even understand why that is, I'm definitely the kind of person to follow the spirit, not the letter, and do what makes sense more than what was said to be done years ago when things were unforseen.

Definitely in agreement about putting out the flames.

Joined: March 3, 2002
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from cynake
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Posted on Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:32 am
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from cynake via PM
===========================================

Still can't post in the admin forums. Toss this into the trading forum thread if you wouldn't mind.

..

Couple issues I'd like to add. First, I know the opinion fishing thread turned into a disaster rather quick, and it's quite long, but I went into my position on this in significant detail there.

Normally, a vote would be fine. However, I think there is a loophole in the voting/change process... in that, we assume any suggestion or vote made by members is in MAILs best interest and belongs here. That will tend to be the case, but is not necessarily true.

For example, if the membership brings up that they want to have a forum for discussing football, and is passes, do we do it?

That's unlikely to occur, but the issue of a trading forum and whether we want to allow advertising, buying, selling, etc here is obviously much closer to reality and may get voted in because it has a lot in common with membership. But it might still not belong here according to the mission statement of what this site is for.

SO ... I think any change suggested needs to first pass a quick refference check with the mission statement. Most of the time we don't bother to do this or haven't needed to, because it's never anything debatably close. Well, this time it's debatably close.

We should settle that before we take it to a vote.

I'm not sure how. We can't take it to the membership, because their opinion will match their vote on the topic. If they want it, they won't care whether it belongs here or not, they'll probably vote to have it. If not, then not, even if it doesn't diverge from our core purpose. So who decides? All I can guess is, we do, the BOD... on the assumption that we're "better" than the membership at deciding these things, because we're responsible to the charter? (or supposed to be?)

I'd even suggest modifications to the charter to include this kind of check, on a "If you (BOD member) consider it questionable, say something" basis. If one person does, we discuss it, possibly vote on it. It'd be assinine to say we need to do this for every proposed change, one vote is beaurocracy and lag enough. 98% of the time there's no need to go through a core purpose refference check. In fact, I bet we'd go years without needing to do this again. But having it there is still a good idea.

....

Next issue with a vote. If we do decide that this doesn't diverge from the mission statement, the vote should have a preamble. A preamble is where you briefly introduce the issue and it's importance. A short paragraph that's a backdrop for the vote and what voting for one or the other will mean. It's not part of the question, it introduces the question.

"The Bumsville Water Treatment Plant is 40 years old. Operating and repair costs in the last 5 years have risen significantly and are expected to continue accelerating. Constructing a new water treatment plant would bring costs down significantly, but faces a large initial infrastructure cost. We can continue to use the old facility, incurring the rising annual costs, or raise taxes by 1% for this fiscal year to cover the construction of a new facility which will recoup costs within 10 years.

Should we raise taxes and build the new facility this year?

(0) Yes
(0) No"

Like that. You don't really include arguements or summarize the debate, (that's what discussion is for) you just explain the issue. Obviously it's very easy to bias the vote with what you write in the preamble, so you have to be responsible when write it.

....

And last, I'm not sure it's a good idea to have this vote so generically. A trading forum is different than a bulletin-board-like system where companies can post ads. If you say trading forum in the question, people may vote for it, even though they would oppose advertising and sales announcements.

I'm not sure how to resolve that one, because it's: 1) A blurry line and not too much of a challenge to circumvent, and 2) Not something we wanted to have to hammer out details on until we had to.

That's all from me. Thanks to Kim for posting this for me.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: April 29, 2002
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Posted on Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:32 pm
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Just a note on the charter, I think this is just a question of semantics. the section reads:

Quote:
5.1.3 - Major decisions
Major decisions (for example, removal of a member or website/discussion board redesign), must be proposed by the B.O.D., and posted for discussion and approval by the membership. The B.O.D. will only carry out such actions after approval has been secured from the membership.


The weaves redesign is definitely covered by this, as it is, by definition, a redesign, and changes the look and feel of one of our core functionalities.

Adding a new forum is 10 minutes' work, and doesn't change any existing functionality, so I can't see how it could be considered a redesign.

On the topic of missions and policies, the charter defines M.A.I.L. thusly:

Quote:
2.2 - The Organization
The stated intent for the creation and existence of M.A.I.L. is to be an international group of artisans dedicated to the advancement of maille art and maille-related arts. Our aim is to create new techniques, weaves, and patterns, expanding the knowledge of both novice and master, and to increase public awareness of the art and industry of maille.


While, on the whole, I am not really in favor of allowing commercialism on the boards, a trading forum would seem to fit into increasing awareness of the industry of maille pretty neatly.

I don't necessarily think that we need to pin down a definite policy for what would go on in a new forum *before* a vote is taken, since the BOD has the ability to implement and change those policies at any time, so what was being voted for wouldn't really be set in stone anyway...

Bear in mind too, folks, we may be getting caught up in the legalities/mechanics of this a bit too much. If there is a strong sentiment on the boards for this new forum, the membership could force a vote at any time, and by our charter, the BOD couldn't stop it anyway. I only suggested this as a way to avoid a firefight, fulfilling a need before someone decides to fill it for us...


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

George Bernard Shaw
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Posted on Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:55 pm
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thanks for clearing that up for me, blaise.

so, when should we hold the vote?

and, should we add a preamble as cynake mentioned?

i feel that a link to the thread here and in the nitting circle would be preamble enough. i think it would be difficult to write a nonbiased preamble, but if someone wants to give it a go... joseki, away.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:04 pm
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membership vote this friday.

using rygars' wording. no preamble, but will post links to this thread and the knitting circle thread in the message.

unless someone else has another suggestion. i believe it's time.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: April 15, 2002
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Posted on Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:56 pm
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Note - Thanks a bunch Blaise. Mod privaledges are back. Admin posting is back. My account seems fixed. Hurray.

Quote:
While, on the whole, I am not really in favor of allowing commercialism on the boards, a trading forum would seem to fit into increasing awareness of the industry of maille pretty neatly.


I'm not following you here. Adding a trading forum would seem to be an internal matter that helps the membership, mostly. Increasing awareness of maille and the industry of maille, to me, is going out and telling people about MAIL. Being a decent library so people don't have to run around grabbing scraps of information from here or there.

Truth be told, I've always had a bit of a problem with this part of the charter. I don't really think it makes sense to be missionaries.. as if we're trying to recruit as many people into the art as possible.. but more that, *if* someone's looking for something about maille, there's a place they can find it. Dunno how precise the wording of the mission statement was, it may just tend to sound this way when it was really meant to say something a little different.

If we're going to set an agenda to increase awareness of the art and stuff, there are many other things we should be doing to pursue that. A trading forum is almost a null issue in that respect, in my mind.

Quote:
I don't necessarily think that we need to pin down a definite policy for what would go on in a new forum *before* a vote is taken, since the BOD has the ability to implement and change those policies at any time, so what was being voted for wouldn't really be set in stone anyway...


Well, break things down into 3 categories:

1) (30%) People who want a trading forum, open for advertising and lots of other things.
2) (30%) People who want a trading forum, open for garage sale type stuff, but not advertising or some other things.
3) (40%) People who oppose a trading forum completely.

If you question: "Do you want a trading forum? Y/N?"

Then 1 and 2 will vote yes. 3 will vote no. That means Yes wins, with 60%. But if we then go make a trading forum that allows advertising, the actual number of people who were okay with that was only 30%, defeated by a vaste majority of 70% who oppose.

So, those made-up numbers are an example of how a vote, worded as stated, could cause a motion to pass that's undesirable.

Quote:
Bear in mind too, folks, we may be getting caught up in the legalities/mechanics of this a bit too much. If there is a strong sentiment on the boards for this new forum, the membership could force a vote at any time, and by our charter, the BOD couldn't stop it anyway.


Well, refer to my comments on whether this passes a mission statement check or not. Maybe not.

I don't really think there is a strong sentiment either way on this. It only came to be an issue because of me censoring a single ad, which was there because of another ad.

I could offer the couter-arguement that we could just wait and see if it's serious enough that a motion/vote is put forward, and how strong it is. I think if we hadn't talked about it at all.. and in this thread had not discussed the possibility of opening up a trading forum, no one would have said anything about it.

I don't really know where public sentiment is on this. The vote could split 80/20 in either direction and it would not surprise me.

Quote:
i feel that a link to the thread here and in the nitting circle would be preamble enough.


I disagree. Threads are good for active discussion, they are terrible for trying to find out what happened. The end of that other thread turns into an "I think you're wrong", "No, I'm not wrong, you're an idiot" situation, and I don't think many people will bother getting through it.

The core concept in a thread also mutates. The preamble needs to introduce the issue clearly, a discussion thread doesn't do that. It needs to explain a vote, and it's consequences. A link to a thread does well to review the arguements, but not the issue.

I think all votes should have a preamble from now on. That's just me though.

I intended to punch one out here this week, but I've been horridly sick and can't focus like I'd need to to write a fair one.

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