Weaves Library Overhaul
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Admin Discussion
   
Author Message

Joined: November 20, 2003
Posts: 2561
Submissions: 77
Location: Northbrook, IL

Weaves Library Overhaul
Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:37 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Last night Kim IM'ed me and we began discussing redoing the weaves library. It wouldn't take much coding work, and most of the actual rewriting would be done by me trying to sort out all the weaves again. We plan to expand the page each weave gets on its own to link to tutorials, gallery images, and importantly, variants. This will create an intricate web relating all the weaves. This web will stem from "core weaves" that are either simple and important, or anything we consider important enough so it's found easily, if necessary. The main navigation will be divided as core and variants. The variant weaves will be renamed with their core or something like preceding it so they will be grouped together when sorted alphabetically, like "Byzantine: Trees" or "Gridlock: Vipera Berus" (don't know if that's even correct).

I'm in the middle of writing up a text file with some sample weaves and what they would link to. Remember that something you might think as a variant of a core weave might actually be a 2nd or 3rd degree variant, for example, dragonscale is 2nd from euro 4-1, the connection is through snakeskin. Don't worry though, DS will still be easy to find.

Joined: February 15, 2002
Posts: 879
Submissions: 45
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:35 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Hey, more power to you guys, it's a great idea. I know Cynake was pushing something similar a long time ago.

Now that we've got a good grasp at how the library has been formed, let's try to make this overhaul (if it's really possible to implement) a final version. That is, Kim spent a lot of time about a year ago reorganizing the weaves library. And here you guys are getting ready to do it again. I'm not saying we're not gonna have to do it again in the future, but either minimizing the work or making it less frequent will be a huge bonus.

Thanks for putting in the work to get this done!


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.--Bertrand Russell

Maille Code V2.0 T6.4 R5.4 E=o.o Fj6.2 MAl.a W$m C$b G0.5-2.6 I1.6-9.5 N20.26 Pn Dacjs Xa25g13w5 S00 CCu

Joined: April 15, 2002
Posts: 1819
Submissions: 1
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:47 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Curious, did you guys disagree with the big plan for overhauling the weaves area and decide to do this instead, or is the same thing as was in the wishlist of changes we hammered out in detail last year? I can't quite tell by the way you're describing it.

Is this an interim solution until the new site can get worked on, or, is this the expected final end-result of reworking the weaves area?

I suggest waiting until the coders have their get together sometime this month when Blaise has everyone sit down and do their tech-talk on how the new site would be built... so that you can make changes according to that, and not end up doing something will be incompatable or would require another round of reworking.

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4372
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:43 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

when/if the site gets rewritten.

sorry, but i don't think it's prudent to sit and wait for that. how many years have we been discussing it?

the library is a mess right now, and i think that tess' idea is a viable one to give us more order and accessibility.

we probably will change the system again at some point. as we learn more and more about maille weaves our ideas of how to think about them change.

if we -=realistically=- think that the site change will be implemented within 12 months then i would be in favor of waiting. but as it is, i don't see that happening. (no offense, anyone. things just happen slowly here, it's the nature of a volunteer gig like this.)

what i like about the idea tess has is that there is a minimum amount of work on the coding end.

his plan can be implemented and working easily within a month of the coding work being finished. and that's if tess does it solo and slowly.

i don't mind my work going out the window. i think it has helped people over the last year, it was worth it.

also, from what i gleaned (correct me if i'm wrong) the database will simply be transferred to the new system. tesserex is reorganizing the database, so most of this work would transfer to a new site if/when it gets built.. and in the meantime, people can find things in the library.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: November 20, 2003
Posts: 2561
Submissions: 77
Location: Northbrook, IL

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:40 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Yeah the coding will only require allowing the solo weave page to be expanded to include things like variants, tutorials, images, etc.

Here is a start of my plan in a nice notepad file:

*edit* damn, my tabs are gone... lets try periods.

NEW WEAVES STRUCTURE:

Weaves page -
NAME DESCRIPTION
SUBMITTERS
VARIANTS - see below
TUTORIALS
GALLERY IMAGES

Some cores: Euro 4-1, Jap 4-1, FP, mobius ball©

European:
.....Euro 4-1
..........Variants:.........................Modification:
...............Sheets:
....................Snakeskin Alternate two ring sizes between grain rows
.........................Dragonscale
....................Euro 3-1
....................Euro 5-1 Each links with 3 below, 2 above
....................Euro 5-1 Each links with 3 and 2, alternating sides
....................Euro 6-1 Link each ring through 6 others
....................Euro 7-1 Each links with 4 below and 3 above
....................Euro 8-1 Link each ring through 8 others
....................Gridlock Row angles waved instead of stairstepped
....................Cobra / Hinge Grain rows linked at alternating angles
....................King's Maille Double all the rings
....................King's Scale Two ring sizes, one fitting inside another
....................Double Mail
....................Dwarf Mail
....................Euro 4-1 Thrice
....................I 4-1
....................Centipede
....................Magus Weave
....................Strangemaille
....................Elfweave
....................Persian 3-1 Sheet 6 Anti-grain rows compress, stack to form eyes, and each ring is inserted into neighboring eye.

...............Chains:
....................2-1 (Euro Ribbon) Three rows of Euro 4-1
....................Boxchain Rolled with the grain, 4 rows
....................Byzantine
....................Roundmaille Rolled with the grain, 6 rows
....................Inverted Round Rolled against the grain, 6 rows
.....Boxchain
..........Variants:
...............Sheets:
....................Euro 4-1 Unroll and extend
....................Boxmail Linked Box chains

...............Chains:
....................Byzantine Box units connected with one or two rings
....................Roundmaille 6 rows instead of 4
....................Box of Scales Scale each side of the box
....................Flat box Two ring sizes
....................Offset box One row slid one ring forward
.....Byzantine
..........Variants:
...............Sheets:
....................Byzantine Sheet
....................True Byzantine Sheet
....................Byzantine Web
....................Byzantine Web Square
....................Byzantine Web Cube
...............Chains:
....................Birdcage Variant 1
....................Byzantine (Double Boxed)
....................King Byzantine
....................Trizantine
....................Turkish Round
.....Snakeskin
..........Variants:
...............Sheets:
....................Dragonscale Two snakeskin sheets interwoven
...............Chain:
....................Scale Round

Maybe copy and paste that into notepad if it's hard to read. As you can see I stopped writing modification descriptions once I realized it was unnecessary at this point just to get structure down. Also feel free to disagree with me on where some things go here, but remember I am the admin so I don't have to wait on convincing you. Also remember this list up there by no means is complete in what it contains, I'm sure there's more variants to those weaves I didn't find. This is just a structural presentation.

Joined: November 20, 2003
Posts: 2561
Submissions: 77
Location: Northbrook, IL

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Dec 04, 2005 2:18 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

A question - what about "chain" weaves that are really just one strand of the corresponding sheet, eg. Gridlock Byzantine? There's a sheet version, but I don't think the chain is really anything special.

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4372
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:50 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

pandora! what have you done?!?

i'll help you work through this as much as i can.

keep the lid clamped down on hope.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: April 15, 2002
Posts: 1819
Submissions: 1
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:47 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

sakredchao wrote:
we probably will change the system again at some point. as we learn more and more about maille weaves our ideas of how to think about them change.

if we -=realistically=- think that the site change will be implemented within 12 months then i would be in favor of waiting.


Well, the easy part is changing the coding. The hard part is rewriting all of the weaves and doing all the filling work. Point being, if you're going to rewrite it, might as well rewrite it the way that we'd like it to look like eventually... because it will probably involve the same amount of effort to do it either way, and who'll want to redo the entire thing again? We already tend to have the attitude of "it's good enough, leave it alone until it's broken."

Also, I didn't wait until the site relaunch. I said wait until Blaise sits down with the tech team and they figure out what they're going to do. Maybe they'll say to break it up into 5 sections, or, *shrug*.. I don't know. If you're going to do the work, might as well do it the way it'll be used.

sakredchao wrote:
what i like about the idea tess has is that there is a minimum amount of work on the coding end.


Well, then the way you're doing things is waiting on coding work too. It's actually waiting on the same coding work that the Big Plan is waiting on.

Tesserex wrote:
Yeah the coding will only require allowing the solo weave page to be expanded to include things like variants, tutorials, images, etc.


Right now there is no solo page. There's an image that's loaded.

A system to create solo pages will need to be created. Right now, I'm not sure that's possible. I asked about that before. The only way of doing this is by submitting articles and the like I think.

Also, what about when someone submits a new weave? You can't just make changes behind the scenes, manually, all the time. You'll need to incorporate a system whereby when someone submits a weave, it creates a page and links it in the appropriate place, and somehow knows how to fill in all the sections. That'll require accepting HTML or some automated forms. The articles will have to have images and such stored internally in them.

The person submitting the weave will have to have all the information you're including in your setup, ready when they first submit the weave. What happens if they don't fill it in or don't know it, and then you or I come along and decide to fill it in? We can't. Because the weave belongs to them because we have no way of donating content. Another item on the list.

As a side issue, I think your varianting system is rather complicated. As a chainmaille novice (which I am, I've only ever made a handful of weaves) it's intimidating to me, and not intuitive. I also think it will be extreamely high maintennance. Every time a weave is added, you'll have to have someone go through and make all the cross refferencing changes manually. Or, better, would be to have a system set up with the cross-refferencing attributes built in. But that would require overhauling the database and designing the site entirely differently. Which.. is what we're already waiting on.

I don't think it's quite as simple as you're expecting it to be.

We did put like, years of experience and months and months of thought and discussion into coming up with the system we did a year ago. Something that would be easy to implement and manage, yet be broad in application and intuitively used.

I do think the vairants breakdown you're doing is an amazing project that will be looked back on as a legendary development for the art that changed how people looked and thought about chainmaille. I tried to come up with a way to do a weave map a year or two ago and got bogged down in complexity. It would certainly be an incredable tool for intermediate and advanced chainmaillers and I think yourself and Kim are quite possibly uniquely well-suited to undertaking it. I think it'll really shake up what become the "popular" weaves. I'm not quite sure though that it would be the best way to represent our basic list of weaves. My first impression is that it's not, because of the complexity issue.

FYI, here's an exerpt from the redevelopment thread, (here: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=4573&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0):

--------

4. Change weave section so that the picture of each weave is a link leading to an article (or articles) on how to make that weave. Each weave should have its own page, about itself.

- Group all similiar information into a single weave page. Every article about Euro 4-1, that doesn't belong more strongly elsewhere, should be listed and linked on this page. Each weave's page can have blowups of various ARs of the weave. Some sample pictures of what you can make with the weave. History of the weave, if applicable. Basic uses of the weave, what it's good for. It's obvious properties. Pictures of expansions/contractions, and links to the articles about it. Pictures of seams, and links to those articles.

Combine simliar weaves, until there's enough written about them to branch off. All the birdcage variants should go under the same Byzantine umbrella page. Trizantine? Maybe it gets it's own, maybe not. Turkish Round? Again, maybe. Also list the general ways to modify the weave. How to turn Byzantine into Turkish, into a fatter tube weave that doesn't have a name yet, into a doubled-up "King" version of the weave, how to sheet it, etc. We don't need a name for Euro 28-in-2. If some of the normal variations are popular enough to have a common name, great, and maybe they even get their own page. But there are a lot of weaves out there that aren't even really weaves, or duplicated. We don't need someone to submit a bunch of weaves as an individual weave unless it has distinctive properties. Euro 6-1 is probably different enough and has different enough properties from Euro 4-1, but a lot of the later ones don't. Demonstrate the properties of the *ways* that you can modify a weave in general, and then allow people to extrapolate on their own.

Each weave should have this base page explaining whatever we know about it. If all we have is a grainy picture, fine. If someone wants to write more about it, or incorporate something into the main page, or rewrite something, good. Group information that makes sense being together, together. As a weave gets popular, let people write things about it and include those into that weave's "homepage".
------

So, pretty close to what you're doing, with most of the same work being done, though you have different focus and methods. Hence, my question of why you decided to do what you're planning on doing because that's your interpretation of The Plan, or, if you just disagreed with The Plan and want to do your own thing.

If you disagree, why not just debate that here until everyone can agree (or vote to decide) on the best way of reorganizing the weaves area?

I thought we had actually settled this already. My current opinion is to go with The Plan, but that the work you're doing on a weave map would be excellent as a standalone article.. or, project. It would be nearly as valuable as a tool as all the rest of the Weaves area itself. It could be linked to on the front page of the Weaves area, and inside each weaves page. It'll also be an excellent tool to help set things up when we follow The Plan later, and will save a lot of work for the volunteers there.

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4372
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Dec 04, 2005 8:37 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

i was unaware that we had decided the specifics on how things were going to be done, only that we wanted them done. i do remember people having visions for how it could be done. (edit: i started a new thread about this to avoid tangentry.)


i seem to remember your idea having it all in one database, not divided into families and different areas..

and then organizing them by keywords..

so one could have a dropdown menu with "all weaves" or "european" or "european hybrids" and weaves would show up in different categories, because of multiple keywords.

did i misunderstand your suggestion? or am i just making things up in fantasyland...

this does seem to be a really good system because it does not need to alter what the author submitted and if the submitter doesn't like the alterations they can submit an edit, or withdraw the submission. but i don't see people minding keywords being added. (or clearer images or a linklist of related weaves)

the rest of the weave page is a matter of submission fields where blank is an option.. the keywords could be identified by checking a box.

tesserex and i were discussing some pretty esoteric maille theory this evening.. you're right, it certainly isn't for a beginner. this sort of thing is probably best left for articles at this point.

my big thing is that it's a mess now.

one temporary solution could be a little weave shuffling and renaming. if all of our byzantine variants were in the same family grouping and had had "byzantine: kudzu" as the name, then like weaves would be grouped making the library easier to browse in its' current form... and this would also allow weaves to keep the submitted name. i would still use the @ to keep the main weaves at the top, but i would get rid of the ? in most cases

european 4-1:windmill
european 4-1: persian box

i would have done this last year had i thought of it. it adds just a little more order to our chaotic library.

this requires zero coding.

of course, this is tess' baby now, and i think he should be the one to ultimately decide the route we take, or vote on if necessary. he is the one who is doing the work in there at this point.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: February 15, 2002
Posts: 879
Submissions: 45
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:28 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Uhoh, bad timing on my part, I literally have about 5 spare minutes before I have to leave until about Thurs... sorry guys, I'll catch up when I get back Sad


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.--Bertrand Russell

Maille Code V2.0 T6.4 R5.4 E=o.o Fj6.2 MAl.a W$m C$b G0.5-2.6 I1.6-9.5 N20.26 Pn Dacjs Xa25g13w5 S00 CCu

Joined: November 20, 2003
Posts: 2561
Submissions: 77
Location: Northbrook, IL

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:43 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

My huge linkage list is not the main plan. That's something that would go on the weave solo page if I felt like finishing it. What we need now is a way to display them on the main page for initial navigation.

After discussing it with Kim yesterday I like the idea Cynake had (at least Kim said it was his) about having a sort of master list with keywords and a search tool. The search results page would look like the current family pages do now. I think that maille weaves can just get too intricate to try to find dividing lines to split them up. That's pretty much what we have now.

If our coders are really that swamped with real life - I AM a computer science major, and I'm familiar with web coding, just not cgi, but I'm willing to learn. If I remember right, this website has a "testing ground"? Is it possible to have separate keys to the testing ground to be handed over along with the pages to be changed? I'd gladly spend my more abundant free time on this.

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4372
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:24 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

so many ideas have been tossed around i don't know where that idea came from.. on reading cynakes "plan" i may be making things up.. don't know (or care) who thought it up... it's a good idea that is able to be integrated with our current database with or without complete overhaul.

tesserex, did you just volunteer to be one of the coders?
this has been a busy week for you, pandora. Wink

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: November 20, 2003
Posts: 2561
Submissions: 77
Location: Northbrook, IL

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:48 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

All right, well, rereading comments in that other thread, I have a statement to retract. That is about combining similar weaves under a main header. Kim said something like this online but I figured it would be too arbitrary. What convinced me is that some weaves are just so slight in their variation, and don't branch into further variations, that we can clump them into their core weave. If however there IS another weave that a variant incorporates, a link to that can be provided on the page next to that variant. Like:

Byzantine

Some variants:
Byzantine (Double Boxed)
King Byzantine
Trizantine
Turkish Round
Flowers in Cages....... Incorporates: mobius ball© (with a link there)
Half Byzantine Plus One
Byzantine Variant
Byzee Bees
Byzee Bees to Butterflys
Kudzu

Like that. If necessary. Since this is a chopping up of my ungodly web, which by the way I will keep safely intact elsewhere, a lot of lesser weaves will be doubly listed, under each major weave they incorporate. But there will be no need for a linkage between Beez Stew and Byzee Bees to Butterflys, they'll just both be on the Byzantine page. I'll get a new ungodly web in a few minutes...

Oh yeah another thing - we can combine chains that are really just one row of their sheets into that sheet's page. That has more benefits than it seems at first.
Hmm... dragonscale may be an exception to this rule. There's at least three ways to cut it into different chains. And I also think Helm Chain should be a core as well.

Joined: April 15, 2002
Posts: 1819
Submissions: 1
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:08 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

sakredchao wrote:
i seem to remember your idea having it all in one database, not divided into families and different areas..


I'm... not sure. Like you said later on here, that's not in "The Plan", and it doesn't really ring too much of a bell. Maybe that's something we briefly talked about.

After I talked with you that night, I went back and discussed a lot more with Aderamelach and Drax, so, maybe it was decided against, or, to be a minor change rather the big focus you're remembering it being.

Quote:
my big thing is that it's a mess now.


Yeah, it is a bit of a mess. I think a heavy-handed approach to simply not even having many of the variants listed on their own page would clean things up a lot. All the experimental weaves, all the ones that exist but nobody really uses them or is familiar with their properties, gut 'em.

But, can't do that yet.

Quote:
one temporary solution could be a little weave shuffling and renaming. if all of our byzantine variants were in the same family grouping and had had "byzantine: kudzu" as the name, then like weaves would be grouped making the library easier to browse in its' current form.


Yeah, that would work. Sometimes hard to make a judgement call on that kind of thing though, you would *have* to pick one specific thing you think it's a variant of.

It's a pretty good interim solution to tidying things up.

Quote:
of course, this is tess' baby now, and i think he should be the one to ultimately decide the route we take, or vote on if necessary. he is the one who is doing the work in there at this point.


I disagree. That's the reason we involved all admins (and memberbase) in the debate and together worked out a ballance of all consequences of doing anything any specific way, and put together what we thought was best.

While I think it's important to respect each admin for their role, I don't think that each individual admin should be able to just do whatever they're interested in doing because they're the admin and they have control.

First, admin duties aren't split up so heavily in terms of qualification, as they are assigned in terms of need. There's a lot of cross-qualification, and probably a lot of instances where an admin for one area could actually do another admin's job better than he could. Regardless, it's certainly not the case where each admin is uniquely qualified and has the better judgement that the rest of the group combined. Second, the whole site has to work together well. We take input from all areas to build the best site possible, and to be able to arrange the knowledgebase as intuitively and useful as possible. Hence the top-down, big picture approach.

MAIL isn't so big that each admin is clueless as to what goes on in other admins' departments.

I also do not like the idea of bowing to whoever does the volunteering. While I certainly respect and admire anyone willing to make changes, I don't think we should give them free reign to do as they please just because they are doing the work. Unless there's some reason they're more qualified than the rest of the BOD combined, we make changes the BOD as a whole decides on.

It's probably just a difference of opinion. We've butted heads on the best way to solve problems before. You've tended to be in favor of asking who wants to help, then letting them do what they want. I tend to be in favor of figuring out what we want, and then asking who would like to do any part of that.

Your way makes more changes sooner but results in a less effective site, my way makes fewer changes slower, but results in better changes, exactly what we decide is best. Your way will take longer overall, and result in a worse product, but be a continual improvement, mine will be sooner overall, and result in a better product, but you have to suffer for it until it's done. Both will be a headache to manage, your way requires little effort up front but will get worse and worse as things progress in non-conherent pieces, my way requires a lot of effort up front, but gets easier as pieces fall into place.

Though.. we've already done the up-front effort thing. Months of discussion, 80 pages of private debate, hundreds of pages of public debate, all geared specifically towards figuring out the big picture end result.

The end result of making The Plan was that we had all this figured out, I thought. I'm still open to debate though. There's always things that sound good when you think about them, but then you find a better way of doing when you sit down to actually do the work.

I'll post more in the other thread.

Joined: April 15, 2002
Posts: 1819
Submissions: 1
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:32 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Doing some digging to re-familiarize myself with all this, I find that HerrBGone originally set out a guideline for what the new weaves site would look like. This was according to The Plan (after the big public debate when we started to ask how we could get these things done) for weaves area redesign. Here's a post of the 2nd (final?) incarnation of that layout:

http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?p=67430#67430

(2nd page of the thread, start over if you want to read what led to that). That's where we're headed after the redesign. I'm not sure how very different it is from what you're planning. It would really suck to tell the coders to make the same amount of changes now, to suit us in the interim, and then go back to them and tell them to now make the final changes. It would also suck to reformat or fill in all the info for an interim solution, that's very close to the final layout, but still require someone to go back through and re-gut every weave.

I think any kind of interim solution should involve a *very* minimal amount of coding work.

Though, since we're back on the theme of interim solutions and what can be done now vs. later.. later in that same thread above Blaise outlined a rather simple way of improving things in the meantime. To look like this:

http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/subcat_new.cgi?key=5477

I never quite understood exactly what that is.. but as far as I understand it.. each weave would have a very simple picture and description, then when you clicked on the image, it would bring up a page as above.

Right now it brings up just the individual entry for the weave, that's the same as what's shown on the weaves list.

I *think* what Blaise has set up, is for there to be a difference between what appears in the weaves list, and what appears when you click on a weave.

It's not everything we need yet, I don't think it you can submit/post additional pictures or change the layout... but it does offer the ability to add text and links in the standard layout.

If you're keen on making changes *now*, you can probably get a bunch done via that method.

Blaise has said it's about 20-30 hours of database work to get the weaves area to do what we want, I think. Considering we have, I think, 6 volunteers willing to do database work, it might not be too shabby a thing to wait until the tech talks happen and we get details as to what we can do and what we can't.

Then, as the Coders work on creating the database (20-30 hours for just making these changes, maybe 50-75 hours of coding work before they put together enough of a skeleton that we can start to add content)... we could be filling in the pages as per The Plan instead, ready to dump them into the database as soon as it's ready for us. I suspect the two parts will take somewhere in the same ballpark of time.

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 1 of 4. Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:02 pm
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Admin Discussion
Display posts from previous: