Expansion/contraction/tailoring help
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Joined: August 11, 2014
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Expansion/contraction/tailoring help
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Posted on Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:34 am
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Hello fellow maillers.
I have long ago embarked on a long journey of a habergeon using 14swg (.08") galvanized electric fence wire wrapped on a ~5/16" makeshift mandrel. It's all I had at the time I began the project. I've read many very helpful articles here and have enjoyed my learning process.

While stalking the forums and searching for information I see many links to what I believe is known as Mr Barkers guide which has been immensely helpful. https://web.archive.org/web/20160508055350/http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor.barker/farisles/guilds/armour/mail.htm

My question is concerning the tailoring with expansion and contraction zones. I know how contractions and expansions work and how they are made etc. However, As of now my slightly-more-than-a-byrnie is a body barrel and straps with filled in neck and upper back areas with the beginnings of sleeves. Plain and simple all continuous no expansions or contractions. In the section of the article explaining the tailor zones some specific language is used such as
Quote:
Expansions for the hips. Original suit has four lines of these, two at the sides and one at the front and back. Each line has one expansion per four rows.
While that seems like it should be pretty straightforward I want to make sure I'm understanding what's being said.
Not necessarily to copy exactly but to learn more about how the zones are generally built to increase perceived continuity.


Tldr
What does something such as
Quote:
Expansions for the hips. Original suit has four lines of these, two at the sides and one at the front and back. Each line has one expansion per four rows
mean in terms of how the patch is actually made.

Examples are obviously welcome if you happen to either have a patch or decide to be awesome and make one. Laughing
Thanks in advance!

Joined: October 22, 2010
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Location: Yucaipa, CA

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Posted on Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:14 pm
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you might want to have a look at my article:

http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.php?key=749

it's best to put the expansions/contractions in as you weave. trying to put these in after the barrel is already constructed is very difficult.



Joined: August 11, 2014
Posts: 6
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Posted on Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:25 pm
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Thank you mithrilweaver for the article. I have read that and leaned a lot from it in the past as well. I also know that doing the tailoring after already makig the barrel is much more difficult as each expansion or contraction affects all the mail below. The reason I initially didn't put any was because I was using the article about mail for first second and third timers where it was written as optional or at least that's how I read it.
Now I decided it will be worth the trouble to undo certain part to add in the patches. And I know how to do that and for that you don't even really need the seams because the edges will still be "normal" mail to stitch directly on.
I'm trying to figure out what

Four likes of thes . . . Each has one expansion per four rows.
Does that mean that there are 4 expansion zones around the hips
With each zone having each successive expansion 4 rows apart?

Joined: March 27, 2002
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Posted on Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:19 am
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The shirt recipe that Zlosk archived reproduces the weaving of the Wallace Collection A2 mailshirt, and this shirt seems highly typical of how they made haburgeons and hauberks back in the day.

The distribution of expansions and triangular expansion zones in the Wallace A2 suggests the method for making up mail shirts was to lay in an inventory of various squares and rectangles of plain-weave mail in 4-1, as well as a supply of expansion/contraction arrays -- those two are the same, just that to make a contraction array you just flip the expansion array point down instead of point up. I'm less sure of the expansion arrays or zones being made up very much ahead of time because expansion zones are very flexible in how much expansion they can supply, from a little to a lot. They'd zip these mail squares together as necessary, and expansion links and triangular expansion zones land on the edges of these squares; bit by large bit, the shirt is final-assembled pretty quickly. Mailshirt client is very happy.

The other article you ref'd is mine; and I wouldn't suggest following what I had to say about tailoring a body barrel -- which is to say, nothing. Tailor like in the Trevor Barker directions; I didn't know sschisst about it back then. I've learned a bit since.

That mail needs its slack to work well is clear to you by now. The cleverness is in putting the slack into the shirt where it's needed; mail only pretends to stretchiness. When it comes to its limits, it stops hard. The stuff *is* a 2-D chain, after all.

That "four" thing you next mention is probably to do with making a flat, circular expanding piece of mail for a bascinet's camail or the shoulder cowl of a mail coif: four expansion links per linkrow, and staggered so they don't line up. Just three links per linkrow yields a circle that lies as a shallow cone -- which also can make a nice skirt to a shirt.

But what they did in history was put triangular expansion zones in slits/gaps left for the purpose, with three to four of these about the hem getting the job done well enough for full leg/hip freedom. This did the job well enough, if perhaps not altogether invisibly, and not ultralow profile, the way a scattered array of expansion links throughout the skirts would be.


'The Minstrel Boy to the War is gone...'

Joined: August 11, 2014
Posts: 6
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Posted on Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:02 am
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Konstantin the Red wrote:
The shirt recipe that Zlosk archived reproduces the weaving of the Wallace Collection A2 mailshirt, and this shirt seems highly typical of how they made haburgeons and hauberks back in the day.

The distribution of expansions and triangular expansion zones in the Wallace A2 suggests the method for making up mail shirts was to lay in an inventory of various squares and rectangles of plain-weave mail in 4-1, as well as a supply of expansion/contraction arrays -- those two are the same, just that to make a contraction array you just flip the expansion array point down instead of point up. I'm less sure of the expansion arrays or zones being made up very much ahead of time because expansion zones are very flexible in how much expansion they can supply, from a little to a lot. They'd zip these mail squares together as necessary, and expansion links and triangular expansion zones land on the edges of these squares; bit by large bit, the shirt is final-assembled pretty quickly. Mailshirt client is very happy.

The other article you ref'd is mine; and I wouldn't suggest following what I had to say about tailoring a body barrel -- which is to say, nothing. Tailor like in the Trevor Barker directions; I didn't know sschisst about it back then. I've learned a bit since.

That mail needs its slack to work well is clear to you by now. The cleverness is in putting the slack into the shirt where it's needed; mail only pretends to stretchiness. When it comes to its limits, it stops hard. The stuff *is* a 2-D chain, after all.

That "four" thing you next mention is probably to do with making a flat, circular expanding piece of mail for a bascinet's camail or the shoulder cowl of a mail coif: four expansion links per linkrow, and staggered so they don't line up. Just three links per linkrow yields a circle that lies as a shallow cone -- which also can make a nice skirt to a shirt.

But what they did in history was put triangular expansion zones in slits/gaps left for the purpose, with three to four of these about the hem getting the job done well enough for full leg/hip freedom. This did the job well enough, if perhaps not altogether invisibly, and not ultralow profile, the way a scattered array of expansion links throughout the skirts would be.


Thank you so much and I still learned a lot from your article.
I was playing around all night with it and figured out what all that was referencing, like you said just making sure it's spaced correctly etc. it was just something I wanted to know exactly what was meant and I have now made a few patches that I can just unzip the a column and insert and all that stuff. Also I noticed after looking closely that the zones are just seams like the previous post said
Just staggered correctly which is a bit har to tell without imagining the pictures in the article as having the outside column even and not staggered to make straight edges. Anyway thanks for all the help, I have really enjoyed learning and experimenting. I've definitely been on this site for a very long time.

Joined: February 15, 2002
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Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:40 pm
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Konstantin the Red wrote:
The shirt recipe that Zlosk archived...

Just letting everyone know that I didn't archive it. Internet Archive's Wayback Machine (web.archive.org) did. I've used them plenty of times when l could remember useful information being out on the web, but the pages and/or domains had been lost.


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