Alternatives to Hole Row Contractions?
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Alternatives to Hole Row Contractions?
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Posted on Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:06 am
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I've essentially run myself dry on this one. I can't seem to find an answer anywhere for this. I've been to the /r/maille, scoured the internet, messaged a few professionals on facebook (none have gotten back to me), and now I've come here. The mysteries of vertical expanding and contracting have eluded me too long.

Since I'm a lazy ass I'll just paste it here.

I know "knot row contractions" are a thing, but I can't seem to find online about them. Certainly no videos. I've seen one cryptic ass diagram [1] and that's it. I can't make heads or tails of it.

[1]



When fooling around with hole row contractions I Stumbled upon a way that "closes" the hole, but I doesn't look much like the one picture [2] of a knot row contraction I've seen.

[2]


At the end of this website they list a "knot row expansion", but good luck deciphering this cryptograph. http://www.the-exiles.org/Article%20chain.htm

I don't understand how you need these things to make good sleeves and yet there's no videos on the damn things.
Is it even safe to assume they function much in the same way that horizontal expansions/contractions do in that they're the same thing, just on different sides of the weave?

Anyways, thanks for the help.[/img][/url]

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Posted on Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:59 pm
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You need them because most historic mail patterns have the linkrows running along the length of the arm and the arm itself tapers in the same direction. if you don't do row contractions you wind up with a cuff the same size as the shoulder opening (sort of like a Japanese kimono).
I have been making mail for more than 40 years and I have never seen an intelligible description of how it's done. I tout myself years ago (with much cursing and swearing) but I am neither a graphics nor a verbal person. I have never been able to teach without 'hands on' presence.


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Posted on Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:59 am
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knuut wrote:
You need them because most historic mail patterns have the linkrows running along the length of the arm and the arm itself tapers in the same direction. if you don't do row contractions you wind up with a cuff the same size as the shoulder opening (sort of like a Japanese kimono).


Oh, I understand why you need them; I just don't understand how there's no good means of learning it beyond hieroglyphs. You'd think something that important would be common knowledge.

Apparently not. I've spent at least 2 hours today just trying alternative methods, though. At least one of them hasn't turned out too bad.

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Posted on Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:45 am
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We want, among other things, to look at where Zlosk stashed "Butted Mail: A Mailmakers' Guide" by the endlessly useful Trevor Barker.

You know your row needs to come to an end, and the rows around it need to close ranks. Sometimes you can fetch up with a little hole in the weave, sometimes you can improvise a link in there that goes through maybe three other links, and you content yourself with this, since after all, this is a deliberate flaw in the E4-1 weave.

That sort of thing is what your diagram shows. Note the link to the 1 o'clock of the blacked-in link has five links through it, while the blacked link has three. That fifth link, down at the 6 o'clock position from the blacked link, goes through just four links itself -- having been pulled up to join that other linkrow that has the 1 o'clocker.

I think that there is supposed to be the method: you do peculiar things with two links that are right next to each other, but not necessarily playing together. The straight lines are to represent which links connect with which others. The blacked-in link is the link where the row ends.

That five links into one is a feature the knot row contraction shares with the simpler, easier columnar expansion/contraction, which where possible adds in a fifth link to a link already in the weave and already having four links in it, to begin the added-in column of links to expand the mail one link ID's worth. A column contraction is the same thing, just inverted.


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Posted on Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:04 am
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Quote:
Oh, I understand why you need them; I just don't understand how there's no good means of learning it beyond hieroglyphs. You'd think something that important would be common knowledge.
Apparently not. I've spent at least 2 hours today just trying alternative methods, though. At least one of them hasn't turned out too bad.


I think that a big part of the problem is that nearly all modern 'butted' mailers (including Paul Smith and Trevor Barker) build their mail along the vertical axis whereas historic mailers most likely worked on the horizontal axis, adding a linkrow at a time, because tool access for riveting (or welding) is so much easier that way. It is ever so much easier to 'see' what needs to be done from that prospective. Aside from being upside down and backwards, your 'cryptic ass diagram [1]' is essentially correct.


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Posted on Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:58 pm
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in my opinion, the hole row contraction/expansion can never look good. sure, it can be done, but the result is always lackluster. i've seen people compensate by using really large rings, like 16swg 3/8", for e4. but then your armor is so loose that it's not even useful.

as for all the other contractions/expansions that e4 allows for, i've documented all the ones i found useful. with all of these possibilities, i've never needed any other contraction/expansions. but, i see what you're saying about wanting the sleeves to lay a certain way and not being able to contract rows. i don't think there has ever been a good solution.

here is my e4 seams article. maybe it will help: http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.php?key=749



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Posted on Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:04 pm
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keep in mind that you can always just leave a small hole where the contraction is. though that may not be ideal for armor. but maybe you can sort of fill in the hole later with rings.



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Posted on Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:14 pm
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your knot row expansion looks to be done correctly, but again, the result will always leave you wanting better. i've never seen this done pretty either.



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Posted on Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:29 pm
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after some experimenting, i came up with this. but you have to use 2 rings with a smaller id to get the right look. it's nice and balanced though.





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Posted on Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:27 am
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Mithrilweaver, that may not be all that much of an added hassle, considering that hole row contraction is a hassle already anyway.


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Posted on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:32 pm
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mithrilweaver's solution looks very similar to my solution (see http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=12481), other than mine uses more ring sizes to spread out the expansion.


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Posted on Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:23 pm
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Konstantin the Red wrote:
Mithrilweaver, that may not be all that much of an added hassle, considering that hole row contraction is a hassle already anyway.


Also, folks in the past had multiple sized links to work with anyway (from what I've seen of period pieces in Austria), so it would have been very easy for them to do.

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