Cis/trans?
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Posted on Fri May 11, 2018 6:44 pm
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Crosspost:

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
Will these items require renaming then?

http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=1043
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=1042


Those two come CLOSEST to the technical use of Cis as it appears in chemistry use... But in an ideal world, yes... A rename would be good.

Karpeth wrote:
As you are the one hindering the use of classical scientific words with no real ”bad” connotations, I believe the responsibility to find a different Word is yours.

Furthermore, creating a new term, would only decrease legibility.

Please, I implore you, what would you accept as a substitute?


Basically either a term specifically created for chainmail / Or a term describing the physical layout accurately.

Not an obscure rarely used term that could easily be mistaken for a gender identity.
I understand that with English not being your native tongue, you're apt to rely far more on the denotation of words, perhaps without fully considering colloquial usage. I am asking you to consider the common usage of terms, and govern yourself accordingly.
I don't believe that that is that big of an ask.

Easiest example:
TransAtlantic - Often used / CisAtlantic - NEVER used. Never ever ever have I heard this term. And I've lived on both sides of the Atlantic.
The use of the term here is archaic, and not in common use. The words themselves have fallen (outside of the chemistry community) into far more common use as gender identifiers.
Keeping up with language isn't always easy, but it is part of life.

This thread is also not the best place for this discussion, perhaps we should move back to the thread that TrenchCoatGuy linked for further discussion.


While English might not be My Native tounge, english is used quite alot in scandinavia. While I understand that some use it in it’s gender studies definition, the Word, when used in geometry and topology (in english, in sweden), is usually not misunderstood, and I hold that Maille is a subset of Knot Theory, and therefore topology. While I could use ”alternating” instead of Trans, I can’t find a better descriptor of it’s opposite, which is Why I try not to use alternating.


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Posted on Fri May 11, 2018 7:37 pm
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Karpeth wrote:
Crosspost:

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
Will these items require renaming then?

http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=1043
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=1042


Those two come CLOSEST to the technical use of Cis as it appears in chemistry use... But in an ideal world, yes... A rename would be good.

Karpeth wrote:
As you are the one hindering the use of classical scientific words with no real ”bad” connotations, I believe the responsibility to find a different Word is yours.

Furthermore, creating a new term, would only decrease legibility.

Please, I implore you, what would you accept as a substitute?


Basically either a term specifically created for chainmail / Or a term describing the physical layout accurately.

Not an obscure rarely used term that could easily be mistaken for a gender identity.
I understand that with English not being your native tongue, you're apt to rely far more on the denotation of words, perhaps without fully considering colloquial usage. I am asking you to consider the common usage of terms, and govern yourself accordingly.
I don't believe that that is that big of an ask.

Easiest example:
TransAtlantic - Often used / CisAtlantic - NEVER used. Never ever ever have I heard this term. And I've lived on both sides of the Atlantic.
The use of the term here is archaic, and not in common use. The words themselves have fallen (outside of the chemistry community) into far more common use as gender identifiers.
Keeping up with language isn't always easy, but it is part of life.

This thread is also not the best place for this discussion, perhaps we should move back to the thread that TrenchCoatGuy linked for further discussion.


While English might not be My Native tounge, english is used quite alot in scandinavia. While I understand that some use it in it’s gender studies definition, the Word, when used in geometry and topology (in english, in sweden), is usually not misunderstood, and I hold that Maille is a subset of Knot Theory, and therefore topology. While I could use ”alternating” instead of Trans, I can’t find a better descriptor of it’s opposite, which is Why I try not to use alternating.


That is a perfect example of the issue, however... Often when languages are used outside of their native areas, denotations are stuck to rather rigidly, and connotations and colloquial use are ignored.
It's simply not a matter of "some use it in...", Gender Identity is simply a FAR more common "layman" use of the terms.

Regarding "alternating", possible antonyms might be:
Consecutive, serial, regular, congruous, uniform, arranged, even... There's plenty of other words to convey your meaning, without using one that given colloquial usage could be misconstrued.



Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 641
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Posted on Fri May 11, 2018 7:53 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Karpeth wrote:
Crosspost:

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
Will these items require renaming then?

http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=1043
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=1042


Those two come CLOSEST to the technical use of Cis as it appears in chemistry use... But in an ideal world, yes... A rename would be good.

Karpeth wrote:
As you are the one hindering the use of classical scientific words with no real ”bad” connotations, I believe the responsibility to find a different Word is yours.

Furthermore, creating a new term, would only decrease legibility.

Please, I implore you, what would you accept as a substitute?


Basically either a term specifically created for chainmail / Or a term describing the physical layout accurately.

Not an obscure rarely used term that could easily be mistaken for a gender identity.
I understand that with English not being your native tongue, you're apt to rely far more on the denotation of words, perhaps without fully considering colloquial usage. I am asking you to consider the common usage of terms, and govern yourself accordingly.
I don't believe that that is that big of an ask.

Easiest example:
TransAtlantic - Often used / CisAtlantic - NEVER used. Never ever ever have I heard this term. And I've lived on both sides of the Atlantic.
The use of the term here is archaic, and not in common use. The words themselves have fallen (outside of the chemistry community) into far more common use as gender identifiers.
Keeping up with language isn't always easy, but it is part of life.

This thread is also not the best place for this discussion, perhaps we should move back to the thread that TrenchCoatGuy linked for further discussion.


While English might not be My Native tounge, english is used quite alot in scandinavia. While I understand that some use it in it’s gender studies definition, the Word, when used in geometry and topology (in english, in sweden), is usually not misunderstood, and I hold that Maille is a subset of Knot Theory, and therefore topology. While I could use ”alternating” instead of Trans, I can’t find a better descriptor of it’s opposite, which is Why I try not to use alternating.


That is a perfect example of the issue, however... Often when languages are used outside of their native areas, denotations are stuck to rather rigidly, and connotations and colloquial use are ignored.
It's simply not a matter of "some use it in...", Gender Identity is simply a FAR more common "layman" use of the terms.

Regarding "alternating", possible antonyms might be:
Consecutive, serial, regular, congruous, uniform, arranged, even... There's plenty of other words to convey your meaning, without using one that given colloquial usage could be misconstrued.


And I must say, none of those antonyms serve the topological purpouse. Why is the gender thing even such a hot topic?


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Posted on Fri May 11, 2018 11:22 pm
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Karpeth wrote:
Why is the gender thing even such a hot topic?


Because that's what culture decided to be currently important in certain areas of the world.

Karpeth wrote:
While I could use ”alternating” instead of Trans, I can’t find a better descriptor of it’s opposite, which is Why I try not to use alternating.


I've not heard "alternating" refer to a trans interaction. The terms I've used are:
Cis = adjacent side, near, close
Trans = opposite, far

Typical information in chemistry/biology uses "closer together" and "further apart" to describe usage of the terms.

They're not fancy phrases, but they seem to have conveyed the information pretty well earlier in this thread.


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
// Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Eo.n Fper MFe.s Wsm Caws G0.8-1.6 I2.4-8.0 Pn Dcdejst Xw1 S07

Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 641
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Posted on Sat May 12, 2018 12:23 am
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TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
Karpeth wrote:
Why is the gender thing even such a hot topic?


Because that's what culture decided to be currently important in certain areas of the world.

Karpeth wrote:
While I could use ”alternating” instead of Trans, I can’t find a better descriptor of it’s opposite, which is Why I try not to use alternating.


I've not heard "alternating" refer to a trans interaction. The terms I've used are:
Cis = adjacent side, near, close
Trans = opposite, far

Typical information in chemistry/biology uses "closer together" and "further apart" to describe usage of the terms.

They're not fancy phrases, but they seem to have conveyed the information pretty well earlier in this thread.


In chemistry, when talking about polyunsaturated fats, all the hydrogen are Either ”same side” or ”alternating”. While alternating has been used in Maille for the same type of Interaction as in fat, cis has no equivalent, and I thought we were on the same page here, as you nailed it with the E4-1 vs Gridlock.

I have never seen your chem usage. It’s always been same side/alternating in all chem classes I’ve taken.

If you give me a good antonym, which reflects Dreadlock vs Japanese Rain Chain (left). I could agree that alternating could be used for JRC, but that leaves no descriptor for Dreadlock.


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Posted on Sat May 12, 2018 4:21 am
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Karpeth wrote:
In chemistry, when talking about polyunsaturated fats, all the hydrogen are Either ”same side” or ”alternating”


I really don't understand the use of "alternating" here. It doesn't make sense to me. The bond associations in chemistry can be either cis (meaning "same side") or trans (meaning "opposite side"). They refer to the relationship across a singular double bond. "Alternating" infers a patterned sequence of multiple bonds. What is the pattern of the sequences that it alternates between? This is the exact same stance from my post earlier in this thread.

To get back to the chainmaille equivalent that I brought up before... let's get specific with the following weaves (Same Side = S, Opposite Side = O):
European 4 in 1 always O. <--- This is what you (Karpeth) appear to be labeling as alternating.
Captive Inverted Round always S.
Gridlock SO. <--- This is what I would acknowledge as alternating, because the S alternates with O.
Wave Lock follows the pattern: SSSSOSO. <--- Earlier post of mine got this wrong, due to not looking at the image pattern carefully enough.
I had mentioned Cynake's "Ridiculomoboblus", which follows the pattern: SSOSSOSSSSOSSSSOSSSSOSSSSOSOS, followed by the reflection.

Trying to de-convolve the example that you're pointing to...
Dreadlock: This one doesn't really fit in... It's a 4 in 1 weave.
Japanese Rain Chain: This is a 5 in 1 weave.
The difference is that Dreadlock turns one of JRC's connected rings into cousins.

Note that none of my descriptions here use cis/trans.

-----

To further confuse the readers:
I'd also note that JPLs also support this phrasing (but isn't alone sufficient... The other criteria to distinguish them is the spiral direction, which can be defined with the "same" and "reverse" notation...). Titus has a super nice article here: Jens Pind Linkage 3 and Variants - Definitions; Differences and Distinguishing Characteristics. I recommend that over this. They use the wording "front" and "behind" (for the location of the cousin). Following through by saying the location of the cousins (the 1st ring interacts with cousin 1 and 4, 2nd ring interacts with cousin 2 and 5, etc)...
JPL + AJPL + 3-O-AJPL: OOO.
1-O-AJPL + 1-O-JPL: SOO.
3-O-JPL : SSS.

Probably going to get this wrong (sleepy, eyes going buggy).... take with a grain of salt or ignore completely.
JPL: Cousins OOO, Spirals SSS
AJPL: Cousins OOO, Spirals RRS
3-O-AJPL: Cousins OOO, Spirals RRR
1-O-JPL: Cousins SOO, Spirals RSS
1-O-AJPL: Cousins SOO, Spirals RRS
3-O-JPL: Cousins SSS, Spirals SSS


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
// Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Eo.n Fper MFe.s Wsm Caws G0.8-1.6 I2.4-8.0 Pn Dcdejst Xw1 S07

Joined: August 30, 2010
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Posted on Sat May 12, 2018 8:23 am
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TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
Karpeth wrote:
In chemistry, when talking about polyunsaturated fats, all the hydrogen are Either ”same side” or ”alternating”


I really don't understand the use of "alternating" here. It doesn't make sense to me. The bond associations in chemistry can be either cis (meaning "same side") or trans (meaning "opposite side"). They refer to the relationship across a singular double bond. "Alternating" infers a patterned sequence of multiple bonds. What is the pattern of the sequences that it alternates between? This is the exact same stance from my post earlier in this thread.

To get back to the chainmaille equivalent that I brought up before... let's get specific with the following weaves (Same Side = S, Opposite Side = O):
European 4 in 1 always O. <--- This is what you (Karpeth) appear to be labeling as alternating.
Captive Inverted Round always S.
Gridlock SO. <--- This is what I would acknowledge as alternating, because the S alternates with O.
Wave Lock follows the pattern: SSSSOSO. <--- Earlier post of mine got this wrong, due to not looking at the image pattern carefully enough.
I had mentioned Cynake's "Ridiculomoboblus", which follows the pattern: SSOSSOSSSSOSSSSOSSSSOSSSSOSOS, followed by the reflection.

Trying to de-convolve the example that you're pointing to...
Dreadlock: This one doesn't really fit in... It's a 4 in 1 weave.
Japanese Rain Chain: This is a 5 in 1 weave.
The difference is that Dreadlock turns one of JRC's connected rings into cousins.

Note that none of my descriptions here use cis/trans.

-----

To further confuse the readers:
I'd also note that JPLs also support this phrasing (but isn't alone sufficient... The other criteria to distinguish them is the spiral direction, which can be defined with the "same" and "reverse" notation...). Titus has a super nice article here: Jens Pind Linkage 3 and Variants - Definitions; Differences and Distinguishing Characteristics. I recommend that over this. They use the wording "front" and "behind" (for the location of the cousin). Following through by saying the location of the cousins (the 1st ring interacts with cousin 1 and 4, 2nd ring interacts with cousin 2 and 5, etc)...
JPL + AJPL + 3-O-AJPL: OOO.
1-O-AJPL + 1-O-JPL: SOO.
3-O-JPL : SSS.

Probably going to get this wrong (sleepy, eyes going buggy).... take with a grain of salt or ignore completely.
JPL: Cousins OOO, Spirals SSS
AJPL: Cousins OOO, Spirals RRS
3-O-AJPL: Cousins OOO, Spirals RRR
1-O-JPL: Cousins SOO, Spirals RSS
1-O-AJPL: Cousins SOO, Spirals RRS
3-O-JPL: Cousins SSS, Spirals SSS


It’s not a single Bond, it’s called trans If it’s polyunsaturated, and all Bonds where possible alternate. This is the way the TetraOrb Webs use cis/trans.

Furthermore, while I can agree your usage, i believe that Both versions are legitimare interpretations.

I recently made Dreadlock, JRC and the Third one. I replicated them ring for ring, colour coded.
Dreadlock is an irregular mess. The Cousin interaction you speak of is the result of what appears to be a mistake. It’s simply inconsistant, and It is mostly a 5-1 weave, mostly Half Persian Spiral, namely.
JRC (left) is ”alternating” to HPS (the duplicate of Dreadlock).

The reason Why I keep coming back to This nomenclature, is that while some weaves have ambiguity (E4-1, and the likes), some weaves have a strict lineage (JPL), some weaves, such as HPS and JRC (left), are the opposite of eachother, where no clear ”main weave” exists.


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Posted on Sat May 12, 2018 12:18 pm
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narrina once declined my name for a weave called zygote. i couldn't understand her reasoning that it was somehow connected to abortion. i can understand if a word is offensive to others, but trans doesn't seem offensive to me. i suppose it would be offensive if it was used to describe something negative, like when people say "that's gay" to describe something bad. but if it's describing weave interaction, it doesn't seem negative to me. i tend to think of our community as scientific/artistic. this website in particular seems more on the scientific side because of all categorization and organization. so, in conclusion i side with karpeth on this one. a rare occurrence, i know...



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Posted on Sat May 12, 2018 3:37 pm
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Karpeth wrote:
It’s not a single Bond, it’s called trans If it’s polyunsaturated, and all Bonds where possible alternate.


I recommend fixing wikipedia's entry on the topic if that is the case. I'll note that they denote "all-(bond type)". Only the monounsaturated fats don't include the "all" clarification. Or how about this definition: Wikipedia's "trans fat" which specifically states "In chemical terms, trans fat is a fat (lipid) molecule that contains one or more double bonds in trans geometric configuration."
This is wikipedia's article on the isomerism description -- It describes the orientation of molecules surrounding a double bond.

All descriptions point to the double bond being described. Full molecule descriptions are based on "is that type of bond present or not" or "are all the bond types of that form".

Karpeth wrote:
This is the way the TetraOrb Webs use cis/trans.


The way that Tetra Orb is structured (regular tetrahedron with connection rings at each triangular face edge).
Tetraorb hex web (CIS configuration) is Quarter cubic honeycomb slice (specifically this one. Note that all 3 of the triangle edges per face meet. In Dr. T's image, he only has 2 of the edges connected, with the 3rd
(visible on "side B" image) right there to make a connection (but not actually connected because the rings are being slightly rotated by the actual connection on "side B").
Tetraorb hex web (TRANS configuration) is a Alternated cubic honeycomb slice... specifically this slice.
Tetraorb square web is a different slice direction (this one -- note that the octahedron void has been sliced in half to form a square pyramid... it would be nice if they had a plane showing the 2 slice directions).
Tetraorb cube is the full Alternated cubic honeycomb.

Personally, I wouldn't use CIS/TRANS for describing these.
I'd also modify the one termed "CIS" to have an extra ring on "side A" such that the true Quarter cubic honeycomb slice could be achieved with all 3 edges connecting. The closest (but not actually agree with the usage) I'd get to putting the term "CIS" on a tetra orb item would be Dr. T's Tetra Orb Fullerene. Even then, I would identify the pentagonal face (instead of the square/hexagonal one found in the cubic honeycomb slices).

On another note, if Dr. T is around, I may even recommend altering the descriptions of those tetra orb items with the information above.


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
// Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Eo.n Fper MFe.s Wsm Caws G0.8-1.6 I2.4-8.0 Pn Dcdejst Xw1 S07

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Posted on Sat May 12, 2018 7:15 pm
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mithrilweaver wrote:
narrina once declined my name for a weave called zygote. i couldn't understand her reasoning that it was somehow connected to abortion. i can understand if a word is offensive to others, but trans doesn't seem offensive to me. i suppose it would be offensive if it was used to describe something negative, like when people say "that's gay" to describe something bad. but if it's describing weave interaction, it doesn't seem negative to me. i tend to think of our community as scientific/artistic. this website in particular seems more on the scientific side because of all categorization and organization. so, in conclusion i side with karpeth on this one. a rare occurrence, i know...


I wouldn’t say we disagree as a basis of our interactions. On the topics of ”the big modern questions”, we tend to agree. We agree on the use here, we agree on the radial tag, we agee on isomorphism... I have yet to see a true weave that’s Penrose-Tiled, but I don’t know If we disagree on that topic?

I believe, furthermore, we’re delving a bit too far into the chemistry. But since it provoked you to write that up, it seems My bitterness was fruitful? What was conferred, by the way, in My textbooks, was basically the convention that when all interactions were the same, you use the nomen, otherwise, it’s marked as something Along the Lines of 2-trans, 2,3-trans, or 4-cis, to mark it’s structure.

I believe I agree with you that the use in tetraOrbs is forced, and I believe it’s best use is in describing Chains and ”chain-Sheets” (like CIR)...

Still, what’s A good antonym to ”alternating”, as used in Maille?


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Posted on Mon May 14, 2018 12:19 pm
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Karpeth wrote:
Still, what’s A good antonym to ”alternating”, as used in Maille?


You're asking for an antonym of alternating. Alternating describes a patterned sequence that alternates between two states. As such, "irregular" is a good antonym. What you should really be asking for is a good descriptor of a pattern that is not alternating.

Since there are many other patterns that are non-alternating (thus making it difficult for grouping them all into a single term), I recommend describing the specific pattern. As noted by my descriptions a couple posts ago, my recommendation is to describe using the sequence of "same/close side" and "opposite/far side".


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
// Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Eo.n Fper MFe.s Wsm Caws G0.8-1.6 I2.4-8.0 Pn Dcdejst Xw1 S07

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Posted on Tue May 15, 2018 4:41 am
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I want to emphasize that there are two debates going on here: whether cis/trans is appropriate for technical terminology and whether cis/trans is an accurate descriptor for chain mail structures.

With regards to the former I think that it's important to recognize that while language is evolving constantly over time, it's also important not to let that change be led solely by the ignorant. While the layman may think that cis/trans was invented by the LGBT community as a descriptor for gender identity the fact is that it has been a technical term in chemistry for amuch longer period of time. As I understand the argument against the terms' use, the layman's definition should take precedent because it is perceived as the dominant modern use of the terms. However, should you Google the phrase "cis trans" will will find exactly no mention of gender identity at all, and in fact the perceived prevalence of this definition is simply due to a vocal minority. But regardless of the group's size, co-option of a technical term should not preclude its continued use in appropriate instances. History has shown this to be a losing battle. Mental disabilities have been renamed so many times that one wonders why they bothered at all. Allowing language to be dictated by the ignorant layman is double-plus ungood.

The latter question is not a difficult one to me because clearly chain mail can form these structures.
Cis: Daisy Chain 1
Trans: Daisy Chain 0

Cis: Velo
Cis: Endo
Trans: Power Line

Cis: Elfweave
Trans: Persian Elfsheet (pretend Persian Elfweave chain is in the library)

Mithrilweaver was kind enough to demonstrate different isomers of his weave in a single submission.
Not Tao Linear

Despite the terms being accurate I don't think they're the most useful in describing these structures. In chemistry the geometry of a particular double bond location is specified but this doesn't work well for a practically continuous chain. However something like 1-Cis could mean every row is cis-bonded, such as in Inverted Round, 2-Cis could mean every other row is cis-bonded as in Gridlock and so on. By default weaves tend to be trans (E4-1) as are single-bonded hydrocarbon chains.

In the interests of a compromise the terms "syn" and "anti" could be used instead, although in chemistry they refer to conformational isomerism rather than geometric isomerism so are inherently less precise for this use.

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Posted on Tue May 15, 2018 8:19 am
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i say layered and oscillating.



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Posted on Tue May 15, 2018 12:15 pm
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Slagr wrote:
However, should you Google the phrase "cis trans" will will find exactly no mention of gender identity at all, and in fact the perceived prevalence of this definition is simply due to a vocal minority.


For clarity sake... google actually injects a bias into searching, typically towards America's "safe for advertising to children" ideals. Sampling other (less popular) search engines...
bing's 3rd link for "cis trans" is directed towards gender identity.
duckduckgo's 2nd link is for gender identity.
dogpile's 2nd link is for gender identity.
yippy's 2nd link is for gender identity.
yahoo's 2nd link is for gender identity.

Simply googling "cis" or "trans" alone will direct the entire first page of links to the gender identity definitions while interestingly the "google definition" tab that appears first displays the isomerism definition.

Slagr wrote:
Cis: Endo


I disagree with this label. It's alternating between the two (50% same side, 50% opposite side). This goes back to the inconsistent usage of these terms to mean "all" or "at least one". The rest of the examples are good and clear.

As another note, Interconnected 2 in 2 Orbital Unit Chain has the same 50-50 pattern as Endo, but is shifted in phase (opposite now in the hour glass unit, instead of between them).


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
// Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Eo.n Fper MFe.s Wsm Caws G0.8-1.6 I2.4-8.0 Pn Dcdejst Xw1 S07

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Posted on Tue May 15, 2018 1:07 pm
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TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
Slagr wrote:
However, should you Google the phrase "cis trans" will will find exactly no mention of gender identity at all, and in fact the perceived prevalence of this definition is simply due to a vocal minority.


For clarity sake... google actually injects a bias into searching, typically towards America's "safe for advertising to children" ideals. Sampling other (less popular) search engines...
bing's 3rd link for "cis trans" is directed towards gender identity.
duckduckgo's 2nd link is for gender identity.
dogpile's 2nd link is for gender identity.
yippy's 2nd link is for gender identity.
yahoo's 2nd link is for gender identity.

Simply googling "cis" or "trans" alone will direct the entire first page of links to the gender identity definitions while interestingly the "google definition" tab that appears first displays the isomerism definition.

Slagr wrote:
Cis: Endo


I disagree with this label. It's alternating between the two (50% same side, 50% opposite side). This goes back to the inconsistent usage of these terms to mean "all" or "at least one". The rest of the examples are good and clear.

As another note, Interconnected 2 in 2 Orbital Unit Chain has the same 50-50 pattern as Endo, but is shifted in phase (opposite now in the hour glass unit, instead of between them).


I am glad I am not the only one who reacted when Endo was Called CIS.

As Endo, velo, power line and More have 8 (?) different ”basic” ways of connecting, the cis/trans becomes less clear here.


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M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
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