Cis/trans?
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Posted on Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:10 am
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TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
Karpeth wrote:
Perhaps I wrote too quickly regarding CIRS, as I've focused My cognitive energy on SCIRS/CIRS.

Is the change from CIRS to cis-CIRS not the same as SCIRS to cis-SCIRS? I believed that the core question of this thread is that of if shift of the connection by 60 degrees is enough to consider it a new weave.

Karpeth wrote:
Furthermore, according to My like of thought, the trans curls to a Collumn, and the trans is a flat sheet. (SCIRS/CIRSS)

Correct. In my first post in this thread, I suggested that trans-CIRS was CIRS itself. I corrected this misunderstanding in my second post - it curls back and forth to form a flat sheet.

In other news, I'm getting tired of typing the letters CIRS and rereading them to know which one I'm trying to refer to.


Believe we seem to disagree about Cause and effect. i believe the integral part is how the rings are aligned, and not the angle. You Add the connectors, Either as a series of Laps of Either Top/bottom, or alternating Making every lap consisting of as many inner as outer.

What I tried to say is that I have studied SCIRS extensivly in this regard, while I just briefly studied CIRS. The CIS/trans nature I am seeing in SCIRS cannot exist in CIRS.

Regarding the relations between S/CIRS, I'll disclaim that I was extrapolating from theorising and not empirical deduction.

Furthermore, your quote brought to My attention that I wrote trans twice. It's suppoused to be cis, the trans.

Lastly, I feel the same. All the back and forth makes My hands and Brain hurt. Especially since I have autocorrect on, and wrote when I should sleep , it seems, but collmun: trans, sheet: cis, according to My view.

So, TCG, we agree that cis/trans is a concept in maille?

Should we, as requested do an article? I could write, if you proofread and help me with pictures?


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Posted on Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:07 am
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Karpeth wrote:
So, TCG, we agree that cis/trans is a concept in maille?


Not really, but that is more of an opinion. I'd prefer them described with angles compared with relativistic terms.

Also, as shown earlier in this thread, the terms themselves have other connotations and are probably a bad choice to retain coherence of thought.


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
// Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Eo.n Fper MFe.s Wsm Caws G0.8-1.6 I2.4-8.0 Pn Dcdejst Xw1 S07

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Posted on Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:39 pm
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I just want to point out that cis and trans have already been used in the past.

http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=1043
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=1042

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Posted on Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:36 pm
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TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
Also, as shown earlier in this thread, the terms themselves have other connotations and are probably a bad choice to retain coherence of thought.


Slagr wrote:
I just want to point out that cis and trans have already been used in the past.


They have been used as terms, it's true.

That does not negate the fact that we should aim, as a group, to be all-inclusive, and cause as little friction on a social perspective as possible.

"We did it before" does not mean "we must continue to do it."

Food for thought.



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Posted on Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:55 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
Also, as shown earlier in this thread, the terms themselves have other connotations and are probably a bad choice to retain coherence of thought.


Slagr wrote:
I just want to point out that cis and trans have already been used in the past.


They have been used as terms, it's true.

That does not negate the fact that we should aim, as a group, to be all-inclusive, and cause as little friction on a social perspective as possible.

"We did it before" does not mean "we must continue to do it."

Food for thought.


While I agree with your statement, I stand for My opinion that trans/cis is an aspect, and should be named as such.


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Posted on Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:32 am
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Slagr wrote:
I just want to point out that cis and trans have already been used in the past.

I had predicted someone would point those out. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with the "reminder" hint in an earlier post.

They have also not been used in the past as well (despite the characteristics being present).
Specifically the 3 weaves I brought up in this post.
European 4 in 1 = trans form.
Gridlock = alternating cis and trans
Wave Lock = 2x cis, 1 trans pattern
Ridiculobobulus = a big mess of a patterning of the cis/trans connection types.
(Not mentioned, but also forms using the cis/trans notation of the weaves above)
Captive Inverted Round = cis form.

I could dive in further to the persian sheet weaves to point out many more instances in which this terminology is not used.


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
// Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Eo.n Fper MFe.s Wsm Caws G0.8-1.6 I2.4-8.0 Pn Dcdejst Xw1 S07

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Posted on Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:27 am
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I brought up the fact that "cis" and "trans" have been co-opted by others and has nothing to do with geometry or chemistry for a large number of people both in PM to the OP, and in public here in this thread. That was not because I have a problem with it. I have absolutely no problem with the terms. I am not a fan of censorship. My point is that there are better terms and that we are not, at this point, committed to those terms alone. All I want is for MAIL to be about maille and not be confused with other topics on the internet (which is a real possibility when the site is littered with certain terms.) My motives are not sinister or to be contrary. I simply want the best for MAIL.


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Posted on Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:20 am
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...

What terms should we use?

Shying away is not progressive; Either supply an alternative or stop this.

You deleted the first version of this topic, and berated me in PM, apparantly without trying to understand.

For most people with a scientific interest, and for all who have s degree in highschool Chemistry 101, it's common knowledge what cis and trans stand for.

I need you to explain a few things before I take your "advice".

First off; what are these "better terms" already in use?
Sexondly; if you are so progressive, why do you view an identity/medical condition as fetishishm?
Thirdly; how does scientific, contextual, discussion confuse? It's you who bring up other topics when the subject is under discussion.


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Posted on Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:42 am
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i think if lorrain had started this topic i would understand, but as you say karpeth i don't think she quite follows either so i won't hold out for her explanation in relevant terms.

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Posted on Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:52 am
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Karpeth wrote:
For most people with a scientific interest, and for all who have s degree in highschool Chemistry 101, it's common knowledge what cis and trans stand for.

I feel I should remind you that the majority of users on this forum do not have scientific interests. And at least where I was, these terms were not introduced in highschool chemistry.

Karpeth wrote:
Sexondly;

... a typo, I'm sure.

Karpeth wrote:
Thirdly; how does scientific, contextual, discussion confuse?

Refer to my response on point one - Most people whom visit this forum are not of the scientific mindset.

I had actually sent a PM to lorraine commenting jokingly about how her use of sinister could confuse scientific minds, where it refers to handedness direction (specifically left). It is a term that could technically be utilized for all spiral weaves to convey the spiral direction. Its complement is dexterous.


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project.addRing();
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Posted on Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:30 am
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Karpeth wrote:
...

What terms should we use?

Shying away is not progressive; Either supply an alternative or stop this.

You deleted the first version of this topic, and berated me in PM, apparantly without trying to understand.

For most people with a scientific interest, and for all who have s degree in highschool Chemistry 101, it's common knowledge what cis and trans stand for.

I need you to explain a few things before I take your "advice".

First off; what are these "better terms" already in use?
Sexondly; if you are so progressive, why do you view an identity/medical condition as fetishishm?
Thirdly; how does scientific, contextual, discussion confuse? It's you who bring up other topics when the subject is under discussion.

I have not been insulting or condescending in either my private or public comments on this subject to you. I would appreciate the same kindness in return.

I don't need you to take my advice. I'm not even giving advice.

Weave theory is intended to help people understand weaves better. Your insistence on using acronyms followed by acronyms in parenthesis is confusing. I don't think I'm the only one who is confused. How can you be confused by my confusion? I need you to explain this before I take your "advice".


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Posted on Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:59 am
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For the record: yes, a typo.

I am sorry for assuming that these terms are part of HS chem 101 everywhere. If so is not the case, i withdraw that point.

Lorraine: you are Quick to apologize, but you did insult me. You did accuse me of pushing an agenda that I thought we concluded was non-existant.

CIR is an acronym, cis and trans are not.

Regarding CIR, I have seen usage of CIR, CIRS, SCIRS/CIRSS enough to assume that it's an established acronym.

In the first post, there is a Link to a gallery image, with a Link to "weave used".

I didn't want this to become a throwing of "advice" and accussations Of doing the same. Regardless, I am not confused. I can't answer such a question, as it was you who Claimed that using terms in a scientific, contextual, matter is confusing.

And DJGM, I am sorry if you didn't Grasp. What is unclear; I could try to explain My line of thought further.


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Posted on Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:24 pm
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well, for what it's worth, i don't think it's a new weave. i don't have any issue with using the terms that have been used.

i think an important issue to bring up is that this item is not really functional. upon paddling anyone or anything the rings would loosen and eventually open up completely and the paddle would be unusable. but maybe this is something to hang on the wall as art? isn't the whole point of making a paddle, to use it? please explain. you could have used a weave with smailler ar rings that would not open so easily.



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Posted on Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:55 pm
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mithrilweaver wrote:
you could have used a weave with smailler ar rings that would not open so easily.


I agree. I'm not quite sure why CIR is such a common structural weave when it's among the weakest of them.

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Posted on Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:32 pm
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mithrilweaver wrote:
well, for what it's worth, i don't think it's a new weave. i don't have any issue with using the terms that have been used.

i think an important issue to bring up is that this item is not really functional. upon paddling anyone or anything the rings would loosen and eventually open up completely and the paddle would be unusable. but maybe this is something to hang on the wall as art? isn't the whole point of making a paddle, to use it? please explain. you could have used a weave with smailler ar rings that would not open so easily.


Sorry for necromancy.

The paddle has been used quite a lot by now. There has been no problem with ring loosening. As I always hold to be true, AR is not all. This is made in steel; had it been aluminium, i would have agreed with you.


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