State of the Board of Directors, Forum Rules, etc.
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State of the Board of Directors, Forum Rules, etc.
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Posted on Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:25 pm
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In light of recent events, I am putting forward a Community Wide referendum.

The current MAIL Charter is untenable, and the voting requirements are impossible based on current "Active" members, vs. People that slide around the site logged in, but do not check or post to the forums.

This needs to change. It's been on my mind for a long time, but MAIL has taken a back burner... Due to work, life, and the general state-of-being here on the boards.

Several things are clear, as of late...

Narrina is not filling her role appropriately. -- This is through no fault of her own, and her and I have spoken several times on the matter. Life just gets in the way.

Several members feel "put upon" or singled out. -- This is through old grudges, and perception of ill intent. While I can assure those involved that this is not the case, it is up to them to hear it, and believe me.

It is also the desire of at least one vocal member of the community that I step down, and in the recent past I acquiesced to that request. -- Through the above failings in the charter, and the lack of anyone else to step forward, that appears more of a hollow gesture that (in light of more recent conversations) appears to have solved nothing... Nothing short of leaving the community as a whole with an unfinished MAIL.

These things, and more, need to be looked into, and dealt with. The only way this can be done is by you the membership.
And in light of some members concerns of "shill" voting, or other "collusion", I am using charter-legal tactics to ensure the safety of the vote(s) surrounding these matters.

Per 5.2 of the charter, several votes will need be undertaken. Including the removal of myself as a board member, removal of Narrina as Weaves Admin (though NOT as a board member), selection of a new Weaves Admin from a pool of applicants, new rules surrounding discussion board conduct -- Both for members and admins --, and finally a Charter Alteration vote, to allow some of these things to be easier in the future.

The method of the vote is NOT specified in 5.2 of the charter, and in the past has been assumed (and used) to be the simple phpBB2 voting mechanism.. This mechanism allows for no member transparency... While it is true, *I* can dig through the DB and see the votes, nobody else does, simply the number of votes for or against.
It is, in effect, an un-auditable secret ballot... Except that myself or Blaise could audit it... This is unfair for the membership as a whole.

Instead, I propose submitting these MAIL Approval Votes with the requirement that members reply with an "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain" on the topic.

Yes, this means that votes to keep or remove myself as a member of the BoD will be voted publically. No, I will not take it personally. And I request that nobody else does, either.


This post is open for comments and criticisms, keep it civil people. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.



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Re: State of the Board of Directors, Forum Rules, etc.
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Posted on Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:04 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
It is, in effect, an un-auditable secret ballot...

Like any vote in any democratic country.
Personally, I'm ok for a secret voteĀ ; and using phpBB polls make it easier to read the results.

Joined: October 29, 2014
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Posted on Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:56 am
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Politics Confused Sorry I just really like the M.A.I.L. site as it is. (that is to say I am really apprehensive of any changes ..ever) Thank you all for providing a friendly place to share the art! Coif Smiley

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Re: State of the Board of Directors, Forum Rules, etc.
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Posted on Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:29 pm
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Shirluban wrote:
Daemon_Lotos wrote:
It is, in effect, an un-auditable secret ballot...

Like any vote in any democratic country.
Personally, I'm ok for a secret voteĀ ; and using phpBB polls make it easier to read the results.


Usually, the vote is auditable in most governmental elections. In most NGOs, the vote is non-secret.

I would prefer acclamation, as DL described. I Will openly say that in a vote of no confidence regarding DL, would say nay. (That is, I vote for DL to stay.)


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Posted on Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:26 am
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The forums don't concern me nearly as much as the Library does. The Library of Weaves, Articles, Gallery Pictures, and Links should be the most important things to preserve. It's great to be able to ask questions in the forums and get decently timely and helpful responses, but I find that most people come here to go through the Library.

The most important and stressful admin job is Weaves Admin. Not only is it important that the person have considerable knowledge about weaves that are already in the library, they must have considerable knowledge about weave theory and be able to discuss the reasons for their decisions. (I don't mean each and every time. I mean they must have some kind of cohesive and reasonable theory about weaves in general.) They must also have the time and desire to do this. Lastly, they must be able to do all of these things without being easily offended, consider the weave without being concerned about the name of the person who submitted it, and be able to communicate without being combative. That person is very hard to find!

I'm fine with an "aye", "nay", or "abstain" vote.

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Yes, this means that votes to keep or remove myself as a member of the BoD will be voted publically. No, I will not take it personally. And I request that nobody else does, either.

I can and will abide by that.


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Re: State of the Board of Directors, Forum Rules, etc.
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Posted on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:15 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Narrina is not filling her role appropriately. -- This is through no fault of her own, and her and I have spoken several times on the matter. Life just gets in the way.

Sad but true.

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Several members feel "put upon" or singled out. -- This is through old grudges, and perception of ill intent. While I can assure those involved that this is not the case, it is up to them to hear it, and believe me.

Perception of ill intent is difficult to overcome, since it filters all interactions.

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
It is also the desire of at least one vocal member of the community that I step down, and in the recent past I acquiesced to that request. -- Through the above failings in the charter, and the lack of anyone else to step forward, that appears more of a hollow gesture that (in light of more recent conversations) appears to have solved nothing... Nothing short of leaving the community as a whole with an unfinished MAIL.

The lack of anyone else to step forward is something that has been worrying me ever since you stood down. I know that I do have the skills to do your job, but I don't have the energy needed, and I'm also a relatively new member of this community, so I doubt I would have the trust-level needed either.

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
The method of the vote is NOT specified in 5.2 of the charter, and in the past has been assumed (and used) to be the simple phpBB2 voting mechanism.. This mechanism allows for no member transparency... While it is true, *I* can dig through the DB and see the votes, nobody else does, simply the number of votes for or against.
It is, in effect, an un-auditable secret ballot... Except that myself or Blaise could audit it... This is unfair for the membership as a whole.

Instead, I propose submitting these MAIL Approval Votes with the requirement that members reply with an "Aye", "Nay" or "Abstain" on the topic.

Yes, this means that votes to keep or remove myself as a member of the BoD will be voted publically. No, I will not take it personally. And I request that nobody else does, either.


I don't particularly care what method is used for the voting, since both methods have advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of phpBB2 polling is that it is a secret ballot, and that one cannot find out the state of the vote before casting one's vote. And also that all the adding-up is done by the computer. The advantage of vote "by acclaim" is that it is transparent.


Craft isn't cheaper than therapy, but it's more fun.
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Joined: August 31, 2015
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State of board of directors
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Posted on Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:53 pm
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As I only joined yesterday, I feel I need to abstain as I have not had interaction with any of the BOD to make an informed decision.

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Posted on Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:20 pm
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I have some mixed feelings here...

I'm definitely sorry to see that it has come down to this, in the way it has... Sad but I'm certainly glad to see that it has at least shaken things up enough to get some serious response. Smile

I am one of those much more likely to typically read a forum and pass on making a comment, so, I know, many may not know much about me--I'm not a terribly active "member" -- but I have used this site EXTENSIVELY as a reference over the years, I was coming here for several years before I even started my own account... I've read through many old threads, many articles, and been through the weave library I don't even know how many times.

Thank you to all who have made this place possible, and keep it up and running. Pretty sure it's been mentioned before, but this place, whether you love it or hate it, is widely considered THE source for all things maille. Yes, there are other places, all valuable in their own right, but most of us keep coming back here, whether we have frustrations with the joint or not. I know that those who created the place will want to hold on to control of it, and certainly it shouldn't be handed over casually to newbs, but, at the same time, it is important to keep it relevant and up with the times.

Time seems to be the single most difficult issue for everyone involved. It's all volunteer work, and it IS work, so it seems to me most logical that positions be doubled up -- even tripled, IF necessary AND if possible, so that the workload isn't ever more than any one person can handle.

I hope that the veterans will maintain their involvement--at least at some level, and I hope enough qualified folks, as Lorraine has defined them, will step forward to help out.

I truly hope that something can be done to help with moderating the forums. And I think that falls mostly on the members, not a nanny to keep things straight--though there are times when that's all that will do. The internet is a place where tone and intent are so often lost, that we all need to take the time when we "speak" to check ourselves so we don't come across as asses, and also, when we read what others have to "say", we are not so damned sensitive that we react too quickly. It's everybody's sandbox, and it would be really nice to not see old stuff flaring up so frequently, tempers getting riled, and feathers being ruffled.

I am all for the suggestion of a transparent vote, to keep the counting "honest", if it is felt by the group to be needed, and frankly, maybe even a requirement on voter eligibility of some sort(??)...even if that means I wouldn't make the cut. But, I don't know realistically that this is even a problem. Just putting it out there... Confused By the same token, not knowing how the vote is going will, I think, provide a more honest vote by individuals. I'm on the fence, here.

I am really hopeful this will lead to positive changes, and that M.A.I.L. can come through this a better place than it already is.

Here's to it!



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Posted on Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:38 pm
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I'm all for voting on these items, but feel we (everyone) should discuss the alternatives in more detail. Surely one of the votes will not be "DL stays OR DL goes". I suggest we spend more time in this thread on that topic rather than the hidden/public voting.

Without a good alternative, I'd rather sit with the status quo than kick a couple BoD members out with no one to step up. I'm fairly sure I'm not alone in that opinion.

I'd also like a revamp of how admins rise up added to the list of things to discuss/vote on. Currently, it seems like no one is in particular responsible for adding someone new to the list. I'd like a formal way (read: with guidelines similar to gallery submissions) for members to initiate the conversation.


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
// Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Eo.n Fper MFe.s Wsm Caws G0.8-1.6 I2.4-8.0 Pn Dcdejst Xw1 S07

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mithrilweaver for weave admin as well as bod
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Posted on Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:00 am
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i would like to be considered for weave admin as well as bod. i do not want to be the only weave admin though. i would like to be part of a panel of at least 2.

to dl:

i was never insistant that you step down. i thought you should consider it given your poor choice of language within the forums. your work and legacy are valuable and i personally would vote that you stay on with some limitations to your forum interaction. in fact, all admin should be limited in their speech on the boards.

for your consideration:

i vote for 2-3 weave admin positions.

i would like to see the library kept in tact as lorraine sugests but done uniformly - that means all current title pics done professionally by the weave admin so that all title pics are owned by maille and can be chainged. all weave titles slightly adjusted to fit, original weave name / optional _ in _ ring ratio / and space dimention (unit, chain, sheet, or 3d) format. that means no more japanese 12 in 2 that is not actually 12 in 2. it would be called something like japanese hexagonal 2/2 sheet - describing the number of rings on the horizontal/vertical planes.

i vote for actually paying admin and bod as owner/investers but keeping the site non profit. donations, advertizing, and cash prize contests to keep the site solvent.

i vote for at least 2 coder admin that can keep up with the demand. dl does a great job on his own, but i would like to see him get breaks and talk decisions over with a co-coder.

i vote for at least 2 gallery admin that can keep up with the demand. present admin do a great job. no change needed.

i vote for 2 article admin that actually make tutorials for weaves as well as edit articles.

sorry narrina. great job! there's no way you can keep up with the demand of the weaves that are submitted. i disagree that more admin will slow things down. there is no way things can be slower than they are.

i vote for a new section called chainmaille university that teaches advanced topics, does skype video with members, test, and certifies chainmaillers with mastery in the field. 4 admin to run this made up of the top maillers in the world. positions voted on by all members.

any voting format is fine with me. i think all positions should go up for vote every two years to get new blood in and keep active admin accomplishing and on task. thanks for your consideration.

-joshua diliberto (mithrilweaver)



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Re: mithrilweaver for weave admin as well as bod
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Posted on Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:06 am
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mithrilweaver wrote:
i would like to be considered for weave admin as well as bod. i do not want to be the only weave admin though. i would like to be part of a panel of at least 2.


I Oppose both propositions.
Quote:


to dl:

i was never insistant that you step down. i thought you should consider it given your poor choice of language within the forums. your work and legacy are valuable and i personally would vote that you stay on with some limitations to your forum interaction. in fact, all admin should be limited in their speech on the boards.

While I Agree with the fact that BoD should be civil, I hold that BoD are people too.

The thing is civility is something the current BoD has.
Quote:

for your consideration:

i vote for 2-3 weave admin positions.

This Idea is horrible. The current Hierarchy is needed. While Narrinna has other things too do, Thanks to life, the current throughput is too Little to see any gain from change in Numbers.
Quote:

i would like to see the library kept in tact as lorraine sugests but done uniformly - that means all current title pics done professionally by the weave admin so that all title pics are owned by maille and can be chainged. all weave titles slightly adjusted to fit, original weave name / optional _ in _ ring ratio / and space dimention (unit, chain, sheet, or 3d) format. that means no more japanese 12 in 2 that is not actually 12 in 2. it would be called something like japanese hexagonal 2/2 sheet - describing the number of rings on the horizontal/vertical planes.
This is not a professional organisation. The ironmailler challange, which you are the Cause of Killing would have Been part in rectifying the problem. There is no reason to force more work on a position, when it can be Done a collective effort.

To me it seems that someone else should do the work for your weave Book, and that the only thing that Will make you help is if you are put in a position of power.
Quote:

i vote for actually paying admin and bod as owner/investers but keeping the site non profit. donations, advertizing, and cash prize contests to keep the site solvent.

With what money? Here in sweden, we have studies that show that alot of people help in for free, as long as the BoD is working for free, or only compensated for expenses.


Quote:

i vote for at least 2 coder admin that can keep up with the demand. dl does a great job on his own, but i would like to see him get breaks and talk decisions over with a co-coder.

Why?
Quote:

i vote for at least 2 gallery admin that can keep up with the demand. present admin do a great job. no change needed.
For once we agree.
Quote:


i vote for 2 article admin that actually make tutorials for weaves as well as edit articles.

Why is the current system insufficient?
Quote:

sorry narrina. great job! there's no way you can keep up with the demand of the weaves that are submitted. i disagree that more admin will slow things down. there is no way things can be slower than they are.

i vote for a new section called chainmaille university that teaches advanced topics, does skype video with members, test, and certifies chainmaillers with mastery in the field. 4 admin to run this made up of the top maillers in the world. positions voted on by all members.
While the certification Idea is charming, there is too Much quarrel on the details for this to be a functional Idea.
Quote:


any voting format is fine with me. i think all positions should go up for vote every two years to get new blood in and keep active admin accomplishing and on task. thanks for your consideration.

-joshua diliberto (mithrilweaver)



Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer. Fluent in c++.

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Posted on Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:47 pm
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mithrilweaver wrote:
i would like to be considered for weave admin as well as bod. i do not want to be the only weave admin though. i would like to be part of a panel of at least 2.

While I'm sure you would be very competent as a weave admin, I don't want you to be the main admin either; see next point.

mithrilweaver wrote:
i was never insistant that you [DL] step down. i thought you should consider it given your poor choice of language within the forums.

Ironic.
From my point of view, you should consider stepping down even harder yourself, for the exact same reason.

mithrilweaver wrote:
all admin should be limited in their speech on the boards.

One of the most hurtful part of an admin or moderator job is users not understanding that admin/modo are users to, and deserve free speech as users, like any other user.
Admin/modo should make a clear distinction when they're giving a formal admin/modo reply. And when they're not, they must be treated like any other user.

mithrilweaver wrote:
i vote for at least 2 coder admin that can keep up with the demand.

Sorry, what demand? I may have missed few episodes, but I haven't seen many coding demands.
More importantly, working in computer programming myself I can say having several developers on the same subject can be a major PITA. Imagine two guys writing on the same papersheet at the same time.
It needs far more work than electing two guys to make it works. And for small project the extra work can easily burn down any benefits.
If the code admin asks for help, then yes but in the way HE chooses.
If it doesn't comes from the code admin, just no.

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Posted on Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:54 pm
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paying admins is not super important to me, more of a far in the future desire. the major issue surrounding this is that the admin don't have loads of time to give to the website. they have lives and businesses that take up all their time. if the admin were paid modestly, then they could put their time and focus into the website. this would have to be balanced with positions being voted on every two years because money would easily currupt and create unfavorable politics if positions were indefinate.



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Re: State of the Board of Directors, Forum Rules, etc.
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Posted on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:48 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
In light of recent events, I am putting forward a Community Wide referendum.

The current MAIL Charter is untenable, and the voting requirements are impossible based on current "Active" members, vs. People that slide around the site logged in, but do not check or post to the forums.


Yup, count me in that group.

Quote:


Several members feel "put upon" or singled out. -- This is through old grudges, and perception of ill intent. While I can assure those involved that this is not the case, it is up to them to hear it, and believe me.

Had/have the proof, couldn't get any of the BoD I talked to do anything about it. Cyberstalking and Napoleonic forum misconduct by mods.
Best advice I got "Cool off and think about it" .. didn't relog in for over a year .. this is my 1st post in 2-3.

Quote:

It is also the desire of at least one vocal member of the community that I step down, and in the recent past I acquiesced to that request. -- Through the above failings in the charter, and the lack of anyone else to step forward, that appears more of a hollow gesture that (in light of more recent conversations) appears to have solved nothing... Nothing short of leaving the community as a whole with an unfinished MAIL.

Have no issues with ya DL. As a matter of fact I think you should stay. I will get to that at the bottom.

Quote:

These things, and more, need to be looked into, and dealt with. The only way this can be done is by you the membership.
And in light of some members concerns of "shill" voting, or other "collusion", I am using charter-legal tactics to ensure the safety of the vote(s) surrounding these matters.

Agree completely


Mail is and should always remain IMHO as a free and useful resource for people that are learning the craft. Even tho I personally have problems with a couple folks on the board, I see that this is the only way the this site can continue to exist. People doing this are doing it free to help everyone. Tho sometimes it gets skewed a bit, it wouldn't work any other way. To put a point on it, Take the updated weaves dbase. I completely disagree with the way it was done and the choices made in deciding how to arrange it. What to keep and what to drop etc. However there as no question that it needed rearranged and someone had to do it. They put forth their time and effort as best they could think of and created a new working system. Their work, their call, and to be absolutely honest, their choice.
As long as there's a non-paying, time demanding forum and weaves list, there will be quirks of the creators and monitors, these aren't people payed to maintain the board to X standard .. and by X-standard I mean the charter. That Demon_Lotus has survived this long (and I mean his sanity) is nothing short of incrediable.
Put forth the votes DL, I vote ya stay .. I will vote on anything I feel strongly about.

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Posted on Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:08 pm
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2 years, 4 years. However you chose to do it. There should be an opportunity for all and periodic changes.

I don't know all of the politics of the history of M.A.I.L. I just know that this is and can be a great resource for many. I have heard and read some complaints. I can see room for improvement.

I support Josh Diliberto.


TracyH in UT

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