State of the Board of Directors, Forum Rules, etc.
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Posted on Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:13 pm
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TracyH wrote:
2 years, 4 years. However you chose to do it. There should be an opportunity for all and periodic changes.

I disagree that the changes should be periodic.
I feel that admins should have a good way of saying "Hey - I need some help" or "I don't think I can do this anymore" to the community.
I feel that the community should have a good clear way of saying "We think this person would excel at helping this site move along".
I feel as though there should be clearer methods for raising grievances to the community about admins (since you can't really contact an admin, right?).

I simply don't think we have the correct userbase to set up a recurring vote. I think year after year, the admins would run unopposed unless something had gone wrong.


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Posted on Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:54 am
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TracyH wrote:

I don't know all of the politics of the history of M.A.I.L. I just know that this is and can be a great resource for many. I have heard and read some complaints. I can see room for improvement.

I support Josh Diliberto.



Seconded. I think Josh would make a fantastic admin and board member.


The greatest art comes from the greatest mistakes.

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Posted on Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:02 am
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((Delurk))

I am very, very, very happy to see DL reappear. The work he has done across the years has been tremendously impressive to me, and despite my lack of commenting on the forums, I've been around watching and enjoying all the contributions since the very beginning.

I've been around a reasonably long time, but as said, have mostly been quiet. Ever since the drama of the original CBB (anyone remember that madness?), I've had little reason or motivation to really be involved. I was quite content in the background, not really involved, but around.

Recently, I made a significant job change that has freed up a very significant portion of my daily life. I've got an extra ~3 hours each day I've been using to sink back into maille, and it's been the happiest time of my life.

As the community in general (and this site in specific) has done much for my education and continued interest in the art, I would like to offer to volunteer in any capacity necessary or within my capabilities. That is to say, if an assistant were needed in one of the various aspects, I would like to apprentice to the adminship and help out where I can. If, however, my time and effort are unnecessary, I would like to once again offer financial support if funds to improve the site are an option.

M.A.I.L. is the first resource I give to every inquiring soul who expresses an interest. I would like very much so to see it continue to be as such, and if any effort of mine can help, please call on me.

((relurk))

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Posted on Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:12 am
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((delurk, 2.0))

Oh, and if it wasn't obvious...

DL should NOT be removed...

Narrina, as kind as she's been to me, appears to have her hands full. If she does not step down due to lack of time, she should at the very least have additional hands help her on the more basic tasks of curation (searching the index, preparing samples of candidate weaves, etc).

Erm... admins shouldn't be paid. This path leads to the dark side.

I think it would be reasonable for anyone in the populace to put forward a petition for change, with a minimal number of supporting "signatures" from other members. Say... 20-30 AYES or supporting comments should result in an actual poll being formed. Said poll for... 30 days? 2/3 majority for passage of addendum? I don't know how much of a headache it would be to track this stuff for the admins and/or DL, but it seems a formal process for review/addendum of the charter, guidelines, and/or administration of the site might make sense.

I think the phpBB2 balloting mechanism, with the reasonably limited privacy, does remain a valid technique and would be preferable after an initial public show of support for a referendum. I'm ok with public AYE/NAY/ABSTAIN, but would assume most would prefer some measure of curtain on their opinions.

Also DL should not be removed.

((relurk 2.0))

-Cinn, AKA Stephen Hoffman

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Posted on Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:31 am
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steps to ease the load on the current admins and board members are somewhat pressing.
mithrilweaver would be a good candidate. He has the experience, skill and integrity to address the issues and backlog on weave verification and the tact to moderate effectively.


to learn is to know, to know is to love, to love is our aim

Joined: August 05, 2010
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Posted on Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:11 am
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Now that I have a bit of time to respond to mithrilweaver's comment...

mithrilweaver wrote:
i would like to be considered for weave admin as well as bod. i do not want to be the only weave admin though. i would like to be part of a panel of at least 2.


I've already expressed my comments in another thread. Relevant recent links in the thread are Here, and Here.
Short summary: I feel mithrilweaver would continue the very actions he speaks out against, even though he claims they aren't his intents (ironically how the admins he has issues with respond to his complaints).

mithrilweaver wrote:
i would like to see the library kept in tact as lorraine sugests but done uniformly - that means all current title pics done professionally by the weave admin so that all title pics are owned by maille and can be chainged. all weave titles slightly adjusted to fit, original weave name / optional _ in _ ring ratio / and space dimention (unit, chain, sheet, or 3d) format. that means no more japanese 12 in 2 that is not actually 12 in 2. it would be called something like japanese hexagonal 2/2 sheet - describing the number of rings on the horizontal/vertical planes.


I would have liked to see your book project to completion. I don't think it is fair to ask a community to do unpaid work to complete your objective. Would it improve the database quality? Definitely. It is simply impractical to expect a community based on volunteer work to do this level of work... which brings me to the next point:

mithrilweaver wrote:
i vote for actually paying admin and bod as owner/investers but keeping the site non profit. donations, advertizing, and cash prize contests to keep the site solvent.


No. Just No. I very much like that MAIL doesn't have ads and thrives off donations (both financially and content-wise). This is not a business to run. It is a community driven database. I've specifically not joined other chainmaille websites BECAUSE they had ads. If you truly want to see this idea come to life start a business and another website for it.

mithrilweaver wrote:
i vote for at least 2 coder admin that can keep up with the demand. dl does a great job on his own, but i would like to see him get breaks and talk decisions over with a co-coder.


You sound like someone that has never coded a website that utilizes a large database before. This is an extremely bad idea. Also, what demand? The only actual demand that I've seen in this site was when the apache heartbleed hit. Past that, the feature suggestion thread has been pretty much dead or has gotten quick responses.

mithrilweaver wrote:
i vote for 2 article admin that actually make tutorials for weaves as well as edit articles.


The role of any admin on this site is not to create content, but rather act as a filter to present the content in an organized manner to the community. Should we have the weave admins make weaves too? Should we have the gallery admins make gallery images? I have no opposition of them adding their own content to the website... but it is not a duty for the admin.

mithrilweaver wrote:
i vote for a new section called chainmaille university that teaches advanced topics, does skype video with members, test, and certifies chainmaillers with mastery in the field. 4 admin to run this made up of the top maillers in the world. positions voted on by all members.


This isn't a company. Our members don't pay for services of personal teaching lessons. If you want to start a company that provides this service - by all means go ahead. Certifying members certainly is outside the scope of this community.


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Posted on Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:56 am
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Is it just me, or is something weird with 2 "new" accounts pledging support to the one the old feel is a poor choice?


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Posted on Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:15 am
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my book and pics would not be a part of this website. mixing the two would be a conflict of interest. the idea for my book is not the same as my idea for the mailleartisan website. the only things that are the same are uniformity of pics and uniformity of weave title. that doesn't mean that i get to say what those things are and define them like a dictator. that means we all get to decide how the library should be uniform. for my book, i chose stainless steel samples and black/white pics. we could choose something different.

the mailleartisan site is not a company and i don't want it to be. this site already gets donations and the money just sits there. i seem to recall jon daniels, the financial board member, messaging the board asking for them to find a use for the money that was available for over a year. i just want things to actually get done and that means money has to move in and out and people have to work. it is unacceptable that the largest chainmaille information site can't publish weaves in a timely manner. it is a warning flag when the same admin and bod have not recruited any new leadership. it is unacceptable when members can't find the weaves they are looking for and then when they do, there is lackluster picture and no tutorial.

i'm holding up two pictures, one is of the way things are on this site, the other is of suggested improvements. if you don't agree with my suggested improvements, that fine. i have no problem with that. if you don't like me personally, that's fine, no problem. let's at least work together to address the issues. if that means i stay a member and not become an admin, i'm fine with that. i have no power trip. a part of me is hesitant of being an admin because i don't like power. at every turn and in every suggestion i have sought to limit that power and put restrictions on all admin. i believe that it is the current imbalance of power that has led to the place that we are now. i seek to rectify that.

if you feel that nothing should change, i respect that. life will go on and i surely won't loose any sleep over it.

i've had some conversation with jon daniels about starting some of my ideas on a separate website. i really don't want to reinvent the wheel when there is so much good information here already. i would like the community to be unified and not have two databases. that being said, if things here don't get better (with or without me), i will do what i can to start another site like corvus before me.

and yes karpeth, new accounts have been made by my followers that support my ideas. why is that suspect? if you think i don't have some support form long standing members too, you are wrong. corvus and i are the top two submitting members to this site and we both find things very off here.



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Re: State of the Board of Directors, Forum Rules, etc.
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Posted on Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:18 am
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I haven't been around much of late due to the discovery of an affinity for copper sheet but the last few days found me working on chainmaille again and I came by to look through the library and... well, wow Surprised This saddens me.

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Per 5.2 of the charter, several votes will need be undertaken. Including the removal of myself as a board member, removal of Narrina as Weaves Admin (though NOT as a board member), selection of a new Weaves Admin from a pool of applicants, new rules surrounding discussion board conduct -- Both for members and admins --, and finally a Charter Alteration vote, to allow some of these things to be easier in the future.


If Daemon_Lotos, understandably after reading through the forum, no longer WANTS to be a board member/contributor/coder/misc. other things he does, then there is not much else to be said. He shouldn't have to continue volunteering his personal time for something that has become more toxic than enjoyable. That said, if he wants to stay, I don't see any reason that he should have to be removed. I would hate to think that something he is so obviously passionate about is going to be ruined or taken from him because of the few.

I agree that if the current Weaves Admin no longer has the time to perform their duties, then a new one should be found. That said, I also agree that the task could be made easier by either requiring a sample to be sent in the mail or requiring a written/photographic tutorial of sorts to be submitted with the weave. Perhaps the option could be given upon submission which route to go but expecting the admin to have the free time to procure the rings and figure out how they go together based on a picture in a reasonable time frame isn't incredibly fair. In the US, a padded envelope can be purchased for less than a dollar and the postage on something up to 3(?) ounces is a little more than $2. Mailing a sample isn't cost prohibitive. Someone mentioned that the admin may not want their home address made publicly available and I have a suggestion for that too: using donated funds to reserve a P.O. Box. In the US, a small P.O. Box costs around $60/year.

As for the code of conduct, I believe there is already one in place now. As adults, I think we all understand how people should and shouldn't be spoken to. No code of conduct is going to stop people from "heat of the moment" judgement errors. The only way to prevent such from going public would be to require posts to be approved before hitting the site, which opens several, entirely new cans of worms. Who would approve them, who would want to, and nothing will prevent the inevitable claims of "bias" should one person (or several) find something that was approved to be offensive while their post was denied.

I am not sure what part(s) of the charter would need to be altered to allow for this situation to be handled more easily, so I have no opinion on that.

I agree that there should be a way to allow for new admins, but only if such is required. I do not see a reason to have a carousel of admins or mandated terms for admins. If there is a legitimate, multiple-person, ongoing issue with an admin then there should be a way to handle that situation. The same should go for members.

That is my two-cents on the situation. All that said, I love this site and have found both it, and its members, to be an amazing resource. I think it would do everyone well to keep in mind that this is not a business, but a community. It's easy to become riled up about something you are passionate about but we have to remember that we are all just people who are here for the same reasons Very Happy



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Re: State of the Board of Directors, Forum Rules, etc.
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Posted on Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:43 pm
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shinythings2012 wrote:
I agree that if the current Weaves Admin no longer has the time to perform their duties, then a new one should be found. That said, I also agree that the task could be made easier by either requiring a sample to be sent in the mail or requiring a written/photographic tutorial of sorts to be submitted with the weave. Perhaps the option could be given upon submission which route to go but expecting the admin to have the free time to procure the rings and figure out how they go together based on a picture in a reasonable time frame isn't incredibly fair. In the US, a padded envelope can be purchased for less than a dollar and the postage on something up to 3(?) ounces is a little more than $2. Mailing a sample isn't cost prohibitive. Someone mentioned that the admin may not want their home address made publicly available and I have a suggestion for that too: using donated funds to reserve a P.O. Box. In the US, a small P.O. Box costs around $60/year.


Posting weave sample? NO NO NO. It isn't trivial, because this is an international community; we don't all live in the USA like you appear to be assuming is the case.

Making a tutorial? YES. I think that's reasonable.


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Re: State of the Board of Directors, Forum Rules, etc.
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Posted on Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:44 pm
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kerravonsen wrote:
Making a tutorial? YES. I think that's reasonable.

Not particularly. Have you ever tried to make a tutorial that someone else can follow adequately? There are a lot of nit-picky items that go into making a tutorial than just snapping some pictures along the way... which require a significant quantity of time.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love a tutorial for some weaves that I haven't yet fully figured out, but words and images are often good enough. We come to the forums when it isn't enough - asking for help (and there isn't a tutorial yet). I feel like this current situation best fits how it should work.

shinythings2012 wrote:
In the US, a padded envelope can be purchased for less than a dollar and the postage on something up to 3(?) ounces is a little more than $2

And that price doubles if the weave cannot way flat.
Can easily get to 10x that in certain places internationally.
Also another thing to keep in mind is the relative cost of living. This community has a wide range of members financially. Some members literally make their maille with scraps they find around while others can drop $400 on 24karat gold supplies without thinking twice. I bet a bunch of us fall in the middle.

Perhaps it could be something to actually use MAIL funds for... paying postage for weaves that actually require a sample to be reviewed.


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Re: State of the Board of Directors, Forum Rules, etc.
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Posted on Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:51 pm
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kerravonsen wrote:
Posting weave sample? NO NO NO. It isn't trivial, because this is an international community; we don't all live in the USA like you appear to be assuming is the case.


I'm not assuming that everyone lives in the US; I apologize if that is how it came off. I was referencing the US prices because that is where I live and what my experience is. I specified US exactly because I know that not everyone is from here. For you in Australia, I understand the shipping would be much higher to send something out of the country or vice-versa.

TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
And that price doubles if the weave cannot way flat.
Can easily get to 10x that in certain places internationally.
Also another thing to keep in mind is the relative cost of living. This community has a wide range of members financially. Some members literally make their maille with scraps they find around while others can drop $400 on 24karat gold supplies without thinking twice. I bet a bunch of us fall in the middle.

Perhaps it could be something to actually use MAIL funds for... paying postage for weaves that actually require a sample to be reviewed.


The price I listed was for a small package/large uneven envelope. If someone is sending something larger, then costs may become an issue. It may also be a misconception on my part of what would define a "sample" of a weave. I see "sample" and I think a small piece that would show enough of the pattern for the Weave Admin to figure out/build on/play with. If the community is willing to pay for someone to send a sample of their work in, then that is also an option. Perhaps there could be a postage account set up and a shipping label could be emailed to someone looking to submit a new weave that requires testing/can't be figured out by picture.

TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
There are a lot of nit-picky items that go into making a tutorial than just snapping some pictures along the way... which require a significant quantity of time.


I know this wasn't in response to me but when I said "tutorial of sorts" I was referring to something specifically for the Weave Admin, not necessarily a fully-fleshed tutorial for posting on the site (although I'm sure we can all agree that would be fantastic, it may not be realistic). For example, taking pictures during the process of weaving. Anything, really, that would help them in the pursuit of figuring the weave out.

I was only offering option/suggestions for how to make the job of the Weave Admin easier. Admittedly, my options were more centered on the responsibility of the submitter to provide as much information on their weave as possible, up to sending a sample to the Weave Admin.



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Posted on Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:22 pm
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sending in a sample can be somewhat of a last resort for the library. i, and many others, can look at pic and remake 99% of all weaves. so, the sample only really needs to be sent in when there is an extreme case. my mailing address is public and i wouldn't mind receiving such packages. then a high quality pic is taken with camera provided by funds from maille. pics then go to the title page. admin write the title and the description so the entire content is owned by maille and can be changed at anytime. original submitter gets credit for idea in the description. i think it would work nicely.



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Posted on Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:58 am
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all these evaluation strategies for weave submisions sound good to me. i think its good to spend longer evaluating and building the submissions page, we will have to be patient, but it should pay off to take extra care with this permanent content.

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Re: mithrilweaver for weave admin as well as bod
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Posted on Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:48 pm
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mithrilweaver wrote:
i would like to be considered for weave admin as well as bod. i do not want to be the only weave admin though. i would like to be part of a panel of at least 2.

for your consideration:

i vote for 2-3 weave admin positions.

i would like to see the library kept in tact as lorraine sugests but done uniformly - that means all current title pics done professionally by the weave admin so that all title pics are owned by maille and can be chainged. all weave titles slightly adjusted to fit, original weave name / optional _ in _ ring ratio / and space dimention (unit, chain, sheet, or 3d) format. that means no more japanese 12 in 2 that is not actually 12 in 2. it would be called something like japanese hexagonal 2/2 sheet - describing the number of rings on the horizontal/vertical planes.

i vote for 2 article admin that actually make tutorials for weaves as well as edit articles.


I support you for weave admin, bod, and I agree with the 3 things here.

Quote:
i vote for actually paying admin and bod as owner/investers but keeping the site non profit. donations, advertizing, and cash prize contests to keep the site solvent.

i vote for a new section called chainmaille university that teaches advanced topics, does skype video with members, test, and certifies chainmaillers with mastery in the field. 4 admin to run this made up of the top maillers in the world. positions voted on by all members.

i think all positions should go up for vote every two years to get new blood in and keep active admin accomplishing and on task. thanks for your consideration.

-joshua diliberto (mithrilweaver)


I like these ideas, but can't support them as is.

I can see how paying admins works in line with the fact that some should be generating more content, but I worry that money will make the positions too political. If some kind compensation is arranged, I feel it should be as minimal as possible and managed by a treasurer. That person would not be allowed to keep any other admin position for as long as they are treasurer.

As much as I'd like to see a university section as you describe, it's not in line with my perception of what MAIL is supposed to be. I'm having a hard time describing my thoughts on this, so I'll just second what someone else said; this could be a website of its own.

I do not agree that every two years admins should just be replaced. I would agree with every two years having an evaluation period where members can openly discuss their thoughts on the current admin panels and what, if any, improvements can be made. Members can vote on replacing admins they feel aren't working out.

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