Jens Pind AR Help
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
   
Author Message

Joined: January 9, 2012
Posts: 3
Submissions: 0
Location: Toronto

Jens Pind AR Help
Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:51 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I am fairly new to chain maille, and am trying JPL 3-1 for the first time. I read that an excellent ring size was 18 gauge (AWG) 1/8", which would give me an AR of 3.2

I have started a chain in that (jewellers brass), but it feels like it is not going to have any flexibility at all. It is still fairly short. Should I keep going, or do I need a slightly larger AR?

Thanks!

Joined: September 3, 2011
Posts: 25
Submissions: 1
Location: California, USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:15 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

If you look at the Jens Pind Linkage page, you'll see that the required AR's (which are very specific for this weave) are in the 2.7-3.1 range. The 18g AWG 1/8" rings should give you a loose, possibly unstable chain (check out Lorraine's article on the subject, Jens Pind Linkage (JPL3) AR Comparison), as they have an AR of 3.1 based on my calculations.

If your chain is still very short and you find it's too stiff to keep going, you're going to need bigger rings in that gauge, as you suspected--but my guess is you may actually have 18g SWG rings. At a wire diameter of .048", these would give you rings with an AR of just over 2.6, resulting in a very, very stiff chain that has no flexibility. That, or your rings are somehow undersized from what you expected. I'd double check them with calipers if you can.

I still consider myself new to this, even though I've been doing it for just over a year now; one thing I've learned is that even when you're new, trust your instincts. If it seems like it will have no flexibility, then it probably won't. Trying to force the rings to listen to you will only give you a headache. Everything you do, though, is a learning experience and practice at mailling. Good luck with the piece!

Joined: August 05, 2010
Posts: 601
Submissions: 28
Location: Bar Harbor, ME, USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:45 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Starting a jpl3 chain is also difficult the first couple times. If the problem isn't with the gauge, sometimes restarting the chain will repair a faulty ring.

For a better reference, I'm referring to step 2 in Jens Pind Linkage 3 (CGI)'s tutorial, and making sure the rings are exactly as shown. If the orange ring is below the black ring (or the silver rings reversed), the weave will become exceedingly tight for the AR.


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
// Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Eo.n Fper MFe.s Wsm Caws G0.8-1.6 I2.4-8.0 Pn Dcdejst Xw1 S07

Joined: January 9, 2012
Posts: 3
Submissions: 0
Location: Toronto

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:48 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Thanks for the link. I was told the rings were AWG (and I don't have calipers, unfortunately), but what I am getting looks like the 2.6 AR. I think I will test some other rings.

Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4610
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:21 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

If you got the rings from TRL (The Ring Lord) they are 18swg (1.2mm) WD. They list their saw cut 18g (1.2mm), 1/8" ID rings as having an AR of 2.6. Try their 18g (1.2mm), 9/64" ID saw cut jeweler's brass. They have a listed AR of 3.

One thing I noticed in your question is that you called the weave JPL3-1. It's not a 3 in 1 weave. Jens Pind Linkage is actually a 4 in 1 weave. So from the third ring on, you are always adding the next new ring through the last 2 rings only. Smile


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:39 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I second what lorraine told you. So there are two possibilities:
a) You have got 18SWG and not AWG, making the AR so low that a proper JPL will be virtually stiff; or
b) you don't weave yet proper JPL - that happens to many maillers that think JPL was basically an overtight Spiral chain, me included for long times of lacking success. That is nothing to be ashamed of.

So please compare your chain segment with the samples provided in lorraine's article Jens Pind Linkage (JPL3) AR Comparison; if its ring layering isn't absolutely identical to e.g. the AR 2.65 sample's one, it's probable that it's your weaving that needs one or two further attempts and you have properly sized 18AWG rings.

If you see no fault, and have no caliper available, try a further confirmation test: Compare an opened ring's wire thickness with a given number of sheets of simple standard printer paper, using a straight ruler on a flat table surface as comparison tool. As a 500-sheet 'brick' is usually around 2" (50mm) thick, a single sheet will measure relatively precise 0.1mm, and 10 sheets had around the same thickness as an 18AWG (1.0mm) ring, while a 18SWG (1.2mm) one would be around 12 sheets thick. That's a very distinctive difference. See image of 'measuring' method.


-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: January 9, 2012
Posts: 3
Submissions: 0
Location: Toronto

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:35 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Thanks everyone, especially for the measuring idea. It looks like I do have SWG rather than AWG. I will get some rings that are the proper size, and give it another shot.

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:57 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

So we canclude, that this is another thread - of MANY ONES - that wouldn't have even come into existence, if gauges had been abandoned long ago... Sad

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4610
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:58 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

It isn't the fault of new maillers that they mention gauge size without knowing the actual measurements. Until ring sellers abandon gauge, we are stuck with dealing with it. And personally, I don't see that happening anytime soon. So we just have to learn to deal with it and politely advise people to rely on actual measurements whenever possible.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3064
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:30 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

ZiLi wrote:
So we canclude, that this is another thread - of MANY ONES - that wouldn't have even come into existence, if gauges had been abandoned long ago... Sad


And yet, they weren't...
Obviously for a reason...

When used properly, gauges are a quick and effective method for transferring information in relatively shorthand.

In the wrong hands, they can be mayhem.

The problem isn't the system, it's the information (or lack therof) available.

We should be promoting education, not abolishment.



Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:07 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

You know WHY am against gauges? It's only the fact that there are so many different systems that are used, and more often than not confused with each other. If there were only one, like e.g. the AWG system, I could live very well with, as the world can live with e.g. the dB scale. But it's the regular confusion that disqualifies them for me. At least in the maille work they cause trouble - more than they solve maille-related problems.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: January 29, 2011
Posts: 240
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:30 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Before I started mailling, I was already used to 'a' gauge system of wire measurement, so that carried over into my new interest. I am now familiar with more of the systems in use, but prefer gauge.

The important thing, of course, is that the system in use be indicated, i.e. 18 AWG, not just 18 gauge. I got yelled at here about that on one of my first posts, and have not forgotten this lesson--- but now I even 'get' how inportant it is.

One frustrating thing is when suppliers themselves do not indicate what system they are using when mentioning, say, 18 gauge.

There are of course general rules indicating which system for certain sizes and base-or-precious metals, but these do not seem to be uniformly applied.

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT. The time now is Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:59 am
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
Display posts from previous: