Weave Tag Definitions
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
   
Author Message

Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 2260
Submissions: 96
Location: Standish, Michigan, USA

Weave Tag Definitions
Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:49 pm || Last edited by Nárrína on Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:53 pm; edited 12 times in total
Link to Post: Link to Post

European: weaves belonging to the European weave family; exhibit through-the-eye connections. Example:


Persian: weaves belonging to the Persian weave family; exhibit both through-the-eye connections and around-the-eye connections. Example:


Japanese: weaves belonging to the Japanese weave family; exhibit no-eye connections. Example:


Mobius: weaves belonging to the Mobius weave family; exhibit through-eye-connections where an infinite number of rings (but minimum of three) go through the same eye. Example:


Mage: weaves belonging to the Mage weave family; exhibit no-eye connections that have the appearance and behaviour of through-the-eye connections (particularly the European TE connections). Example:


Spiral: primarily a type of through-the-eye connections that causes a weave to twist; this interaction tends to over-ride the weave's original structure. Example:


Inverted: a weave is said to be inverted when the structure of the original weave is made to go the opposite of it's original structure. Example:


Captive: when a ring is held inside a weave by non-structural means. Example:


Orbital: when a ring goes around another ring, but they do not interlock; this is a non-structural interaction. Example:


Rhino: a pseudo captive/orbital interaction over a pair of stacked rings; one or more rings that go around a stacked eye. Example:


Helm: a pseudo captive/orbital interaction in which rings are sandwiched together; most also involve rings of two different sizes, with the smaller inside of the larger and rotated at a 90 degree angle. Example:


Alpha: a weave that serves as the basis for variants and modifications; introduces a new family or sub-family of weaves. Example:


Variant: a classification of weave in which the change from the original base weave is structural. Example:


Modification: a classification of weave given to those that non-structural changes have been made to. Example:


3D: a weave that expands in all dimensions/directions. Example:


unit: a weave formation that is 0-dimensional; a weave that is not expanded in any direction; does not require expansion for stability. Example:


chain: a 1-dimensional weave; a weave that is expanded in a single linear direction. Example:


band: a 1-dimensional weave; a weave that is wider than a chain, but is not a sheet; some bands may be narrow strips of what would typically be a sheet weave if further expanded. Example:


sheet: a 2-dimensional weave; a weave that expands in both length and width. Example:


radial: a 2-dimensional weave; a non-linear sheet; expands outward (often, but not always, from a single, central fixed point) in formations that do not follow an x/y axis; many tessellation patterns are possible; Example:


web: a 2-dimensional weave; may be linear or radial; an open-laced sheet; will most often involve bolting. Example:


Berus: a continual 2-1 chain structure that is present within a weave; it is most often found on the edge of a weave, but not always; (bears some similarities to Mage). Example:


Biased: a weave is said to be 'biased' when the orientation of the original weave is altered so that the weave is now woven at a slant; an angled weave. Example:


Kinged: a weave is said to be 'kinged' when any ring of the original weave is doubled/tripled/etc.; a 'kinged' 'weave' will most often be a variant or modification Example:


Mobized: when any ring in a weave is replaced by a mobius ball©. Example:


NSR: non-standard rings; any ring or ring substitute that is not the normal round wire rings. Example:


Progression: weave is said to be a 'progression' when the only difference between it and the original weave structure is that the ratio of 'x-in-1' has increased; (example: European 6-1, European 8-1, etc. are considered progressions of European 4-1); if it has decreased it is said to be a 'regression' weave; (example: European 3-1 is a regression of European 4-1). In most cases, a progression will be a variant or modification. Example:


Scaled: a weave is said to be 'scaled' when it involves two ring sizes and the smaller sits inside of the larger ring; in most cases, it is a similar principle to 'kinging' a weave, only the added ring is smaller and so sits inside of the larger rings. Example:


Spiked: a weave is said to be 'spiked' when an extra ring is added to a weave and stands straight out at a 90 degree angle from the weave itself. Example:


Shaggy: a weave is said to be 'shaggy' when loose hanging rings are added to the edge of a weave; in most cases, 'shaggy' rings are superfluous to the weave, but on occasion the 'shaggy' affect is a by-product of a structural ring. Example:


Unbalanced: a weave is said to be 'unbalanced' when the position of the rings are changed in order to give the weave a zig-zag staggering; an example would be Oops (Unbalanced European 4-1) where the weave is still a 4-1 weave only instead of a 2:2 (two rings on either side) position it is changed to a 3:1 (three rings on one side and one on the other); achieved when there is an uneven number of rings, or uneven division of ring placement. Example:


Weave submission policy

M.A.I.L. Weave Library Submission Policy: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=17564

Weave theory articles:

Definitions of Weave Terms by Tesserex: http://mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=18332
Names of Different Types of 'eyes' by Femailler: http://mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.cgi?key=61550

Weave Theory posts:


Calling all Theorists: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=16154
Weave Theory- Ring Interactions/Connections: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=16137
Weave Classification: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=14742
Weave Forms: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=8107
Classifications: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=51
Weave Tags: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=16193
mobius vs. Spiral: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=16214
Mimic Connections: http://mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=16215
Some Preliminary Research Results: http://mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=8545

Offsite Weave theory articles:


Around the Eye vs Through the Eye: http://cgmaille.com/articles/teae.shtml

Sorry it took so long to get these posted. I will continue to edit this post as new tags are added.



Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

Handmaden Designs LLC
Facebook
Twitter
Pinterest
Handmade Artists Shop
Amazon Author Page

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:46 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Hmm. That looks basically correct and comprehensive. Maybe here or there some definitions could be tweaked.

For example I don't like the 'band' definition. For me it's a linear, quasi chain weave, that is either a narrow strip of a sheet weave featuring unique properties, or a variant of such a strip.
The 'web' definition imho needs a change as well - for me they are quasi-sheets, consisting of bolted chain segments.

There may be some further edit-worthy ones; my list is not complete, and opinions differ. But anyway: Good work.


-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: April 02, 2008
Posts: 2176
Submissions: 39
Location: Lincoln, NE

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:32 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Great Job Narrina!! This really helps me to understand where you are coming from and helps everybody see the work you have put into this.

I can see your definitions being discussed and modified/added to over time. Might this be a good place to split the discussion into a new thread? Just so people can find these definitions quicker when questions arise.


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

MailleCode V2.0 T5.3 R4.4 E0.0 Feur MFe.sBr Wg Cwb G.7-5.1 I3.1-11 N20.5 Pj Dcdjt Xa1w2 S08

Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 2260
Submissions: 96
Location: Standish, Michigan, USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:37 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

ZiLi wrote:
Hmm. That looks basically correct and comprehensive. Maybe here or there some definitions could be tweaked.


I have no issues tweaking them Smile. Especially since I wasn't particularly happy with how I phrased the definition of 'band'; with 'web' they are not all bolted, but they often are.

Also, I was wondering if it might be a good idea to link a weave example to each tag definition. Opinions?



Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

Handmaden Designs LLC
Facebook
Twitter
Pinterest
Handmade Artists Shop
Amazon Author Page

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:46 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

oh my definition variants were just 'shot from the hip', so far away from final ones, claiming validity. -So e.g. the web one could be changed to 'most times bolted', or similar.

The idea with linking to examples would be fine -humans are very visual oriented animals. Very Happy So maybe even a small image directly in the tag list could be of advantage, to have a visual comparison, without need (but with possibility) to click a link.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: July 11, 2003
Posts: 445
Submissions: 35
Location: Brockport & Elmira, NY, USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:37 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

These definitions are excellent! Coif Smiley I can't imagine the time it's taken to create such a comprehensive list of tags and definitions. Also, I quite like the definition for band, since a band is wider than a chain, but is itself not a sheet. To further discriminate, a band could be wider than a chain but not by more than X units. Confused

I am curious, with these definitions, on how to classify the ring interactions specific ring interactions in the following weaves: A)Interlock, B)Dragon Japanese 4 in 1, C)Orbital 2 in 1 Spiral.

Weaves A and B appear to intertwine with, or pass through, other rings without being actually being connected.

Weaves A and C both exhibit 2-in-1 chains, but should they be given the tag "Berus"?

Weave C has two chains bound, or sandwiched, together.

Which tag(s) would accurately describe their behaviour(s)?

Joined: July 17, 2009
Posts: 414
Submissions: 20
Location: Palm Springs, CA

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:41 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

I make jewelry, so the "band" classification is important to me. I am always looking for ideas for "wide chains" to use for bracelets.

Mage doesn't make sense to me but I don't see any harm in tagging things that way.



Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 2260
Submissions: 96
Location: Standish, Michigan, USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:00 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Aberrant Artificer wrote:

I am curious, with these definitions, on how to classify the ring interactions specific ring interactions in the following weaves: A)Interlock, B)Dragon Japanese 4 in 1, C)Orbital 2 in 1 Spiral.

Weaves A and B appear to intertwine with, or pass through, other rings without being actually being connected.

Weaves A and C both exhibit 2-in-1 chains, but should they be given the tag "Berus"?

Weave C has two chains bound, or sandwiched, together.

Which tag(s) would accurately describe their behaviour(s)?


All three of those weaves exhibit a type of interaction for which the tag has not yet been added. The tag I would like to add to classify these (and some others) is 'Symbiont.' 'Symbiont' weaves are based on almost the same principles as the captive/orbital weaves, only it involves two (or more) entirely separate chains that are combined non-structurally to create an entirely different structure that could not exist without the two (or more) parts. One of the best examples of this would be Enthrall.

Another tag that has not yet been added but I really think should be is 'Moon' (a weave interaction that ZiLi has done a LOT of work with).



Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

Handmaden Designs LLC
Facebook
Twitter
Pinterest
Handmade Artists Shop
Amazon Author Page

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:41 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Great, and well done edit - with sample images that looks much better, now. Thank you for investing work into.

Maybe a grouping and sorting into basic weave family interactions, modification techniques and variation techniques should be adviseable, so the portfolio of possible weave creation techniques can be shown more clearly. My personal 'weave construction kit' is organized in this 'engineer's way', and the cause, that I'm often able to submit more or less complete weave groups/subfamilies by iterating through the combination list, and not only occasional single ones, once I find something new.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: March 26, 2002
Posts: 1708
Submissions: 313
Location: Chainmailland, Chainmailia

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:49 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

For the picture of the 3-D weave, can we use Japanese 4 in 1 (or 8 in 2) Cube please? After all, it is the most basic dimensional weave, and was the first one to surface years ago. It's also expandable indefinitely.

Also, the one for chain appears somewhat band-like in its flatness. How about one that's more symmetrical, like Full Persian?

Other than that, it looks pretty good so far.


Tell a mailler what ring sizes to use and they'll weave for a day. Teach them AR and they'll weave forever.
Chainmailbasket.com (2016-02-10) 203 + 17

Joined: July 11, 2003
Posts: 445
Submissions: 35
Location: Brockport & Elmira, NY, USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:11 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Nárrína wrote:
All three of those weaves exhibit a type of interaction for which the tag has not yet been added. The tag I would like to add to classify these (and some others) is 'Symbiont.' 'Symbiont' weaves are based on almost the same principles as the captive/orbital weaves, only it involves two (or more) entirely separate chains that are combined non-structurally to create an entirely different structure that could not exist without the two (or more) parts. One of the best examples of this would be Enthrall.

Another tag that has not yet been added but I really think should be is 'Moon' (a weave interaction that ZiLi has done a LOT of work with).


I agree on that both tags are required, with some discernment.

'Symbiont' is an excellent descriptor for the type of interaction. However, its definition may be lacking. For someone new to maille, the weave capture or combination may not be obvious. The entries for those submission marked as 'Symbiont' would need clearly illustrated graphics and explanations of which weaves are combined to explain the weave/chain/ring interactions.

[s]I hate to suggest this, since it would further complicate the tag structure, but what about: subdivisions of 'Symbiont' weaves. For instance, Enthrall would be 'Symbiont (Locked)' as would Orbital 2 in 1 Spiral.[/s] Never mind, I just finished my thought and it get far too convoluted. The tags need to be kept simple.

As for 'Moon', I don't know enough about the ring interaction to recognize it within a weave unless it is stated. If you or Zili could define the 'Moon' interaction, it would likely help its inclusion into the usable tag set.

Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 2260
Submissions: 96
Location: Standish, Michigan, USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:53 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
For the picture of the 3-D weave, can we use Japanese 4 in 1 (or 8 in 2) Cube please? After all, it is the most basic dimensional weave, and was the first one to surface years ago. It's also expandable indefinitely.

Also, the one for chain appears somewhat band-like in its flatness. How about one that's more symmetrical, like Full Persian?


Done.

Aberrant Artificer wrote:
I agree on that both tags are required, with some discernment.

'Symbiont' is an excellent descriptor for the type of interaction. However, its definition may be lacking. For someone new to maille, the weave capture or combination may not be obvious. The entries for those submission marked as 'Symbiont' would need clearly illustrated graphics and explanations of which weaves are combined to explain the weave/chain/ring interactions.


No worries, whenever 'Symbiont' does get added as a tag it will definitely have a pic to illustrate it and will have a more detailed definition.

Aberrant Artificer wrote:
[s]I hate to suggest this, since it would further complicate the tag structure, but what about: subdivisions of 'Symbiont' weaves. For instance, Enthrall would be 'Symbiont (Locked)' as would Orbital 2 in 1 Spiral.[/s] Never mind, I just finished my thought and it get far too convoluted. The tags need to be kept simple.


Smile. It is very, very, very easy to over classify things by taking them apart too much and make things so convoluted that your brain hurts just thinking about it.

Aberrant Artificer wrote:
As for 'Moon', I don't know enough about the ring interaction to recognize it within a weave unless it is stated. If you or Zili could define the 'Moon' interaction, it would likely help its inclusion into the usable tag set.


From what I understand through discussions with ZiLi (and then going back to take a new look at the 'Moon' weaves), 'Moon' is a two-ring interaction in which the rings are interlocked as they would be in a normal chain, except they are pushed in closely to each other rather than pulled out to their longest possible length. They are then positioned at right angles from each other so that they from an interaction that looks somewhat like this : '+' (basically the perpendicular right angle position of the rings in 'Helm' only with interlocked rings instead of quasi captured rings.)


Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

Handmaden Designs LLC
Facebook
Twitter
Pinterest
Handmade Artists Shop
Amazon Author Page

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:26 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Basically Narrina's description is better than I could make. But i'll give some weaves as example.

Start with Harvest Moon - that consists of ring pairs connected with, and at the same time sandwiching Moon connectors
Go on with Pacman - here Box/Byz cage cells are connected with, and at the same time stabilize Moon connectors.
And finally One and a Half Persian does the same connecting and stabilizing-in-exchange game with Full Persian cells.

So you see, that a Moon connector is never stable on its own, but is a valuable basic connector, nevertheless. And a comparison with a Helm connector is allowed, as many weaves can be varied from one to the other connector or vice-versa; the main difference is that neigboring cells are rotated by 90 dgrees, or not. And finally, a Moon connector could also be seen as Half Persian element (as the last example shows), but its usual application is far from being Persian-like.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: January 29, 2011
Posts: 240
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:07 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

For a weave to be tagged 'band', would that necessarily mean that it could NOT be made as a 'chain'; in other words, would a 'band' be the smallest unit of that weave? The example pictured above makes me ask.

Also, is the use of the phrases 0-dimensional, 1-dimensional, 2-dimensional accurate here? Not to be overly precise... but these all have 3 dimensions, although the point is made...

Excellent work, which has made clear many concepts! Thank you!

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:56 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

The 'band' question is a bit difficult to answer. For me (and that opinion does not necessarily need to be shared by others) they are basically sheet weaves, either having different properties as a wider sheet due to the fact of consisting quasi only of edge rings (see Elfweave and its flipping-ring behavior), or narrow strips of sheet weaves with an edging (many of the reptile back/spine weaves), distinct enough to get an own entry - some of these would not more be accepted as weave, nowadays, but as they exist, there must be a category found for them. And sometimes there is not much or even no difference between narrowest-possible sheet, and chain - think about Dragonscale vs. Helm chain, for example. Here a chain and a sheet exist, without an intermediate band step distinct enough to get an own entry. But there exist (just cannot remember a good example) band weaves consisting of a typical chain weave, with edging. (no! Shaggy Loops is no band weave, while it could fulfill that definition - it's simply no weave at all XD).

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 1 of 3. Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:02 pm
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
Display posts from previous: