Need advice on C&T designs rings
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Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:18 am
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Sorry folks, the rukes are there for a reason... Watching this thread degenerate from its intended path proves that.

-DL


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Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:46 am || Last edited by chrisdrymon on Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:00 am
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...what finally leads to the question valid for ME: Who is a good square WIRE supplier, in Steel, Copper/Bronze, Sterling/Arg.Sterling and maybe even 'cheap' Aluminium? Stocking some pounds of doesn't hurt, as I'm simply able to do my own rings then, in a quality that fits my needs or taste...

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper Mfe.s Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Pj Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hi

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:58 pm
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i always had trouble getting one side of the wire to stay flush to the mandrel when i wound my own.

ice mentioned, i believe, that they didn't give the size because of the confusion it causes. it's true, you divide the length of one side by the ID and you get a generally useless number, i can understand ice being hesitant to give those numbers out as they could be misleading to many people..

i think this would be a great (group?) article for anyone who uses square wire. i like the idea of cataloging this kind of information.. if a list were full enough i might start advocating adding it into the weave library.

i believe the misunderstandings would be lessened as long as we consistently use a different notation (such as sqAR).. it would also help to put a written disclaimer anywhere that sqAR is used or discussed, at least in the beginning.. something like, "until we have more data, square AR, or sqAR, is relative only to itself. do not use standard AR as a reference."

square rings are becoming more popular, from what i have seen. it benefits the community and the suppliers to compile this information and form a standard.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: May 07, 2008
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Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:33 pm
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Quote:
ice mentioned, i believe, that they didn't give the size because of the confusion it causes.

I think, the questions here show, that NOT giving the numbers seems to cause more confusion than simply giving them.

But that aside: Do we REALLY need a new type of 'special' AR?

The classic AR we are used to, for circular cross-section wire, is a simple dimensionless number that shows the relation of wire dimension and ring dimension. Given the knowledge that AR most times does not more work for noncircular wire in the way it does for round wire, does NOT change the fact that such rings have an AR as well, just related to the edge length in case of square wire. But AR principally DOES work there as well. We should see it as a simple matter of fact, that depending on a particular weave's ring interactions, a needed AR to be used for that weave will be higher compared to circular wire rings. Low-AR weaves will continue to work with low AR square wire rings, while high-AR weaves will continue to need higher ARs - mostly irrespective of wire shape - just the factor the round-wire AR has to be multiplied with will change, depending on weave.

Example: If a JPL3, that normally works best at a round wire AR of around three would work at a square wire AR of around 3.5 (that's a number I estimate based on my mailleing experience without ever having worked with square wire; it could also be a bit higher), it would work with ANY square wire's edge length multiplied by 3.5 for a to be chosen ring inner diameter, having same geometric properties, IRRESPECTIVE of chosen wire gauge (sure, edge rounding should have the same percentage then as well). And this works for other weaves in a similar manner - a Japanese or Helm based weave will often have a needed AR factor of only a bit above one (1.05 or so), while many Euro/Persian weaves can have factors up to around 1.4 - most times this factor should be in the 1.1 to 1.3 range, weave geometry dependant, and also dependant on edge rounding. So these factors, AND basic ARs stay the same.

Given the ring providers would simply publish the measured final closed-ring data as they (should) do for circular cross-section wire, added maybe by an info on the particular wire's edge rounding percentage (btw. C&T documents and explains that issue really well - I am NO enemy of them, and I acknowledge this!), we could build a simple 'factor database' on MAIL, that contains such simple measurement ARs for a growing range of weaves. Once this database has matured, it helps even developers of new weaves to PRE-estimate a needed square-wire AR for a not yet existing weave with similar ring interactions and properties of an already known weave. But we (imho) don't need new designation/measuring systems for that.

Other people that want to reproduce a given weave, could continue to use simply (e.g.) C&T's 'A' rings for making JPL, 'C' ones for Byzantine, 'I' type for FP6in1, and so on - in fact that IS just a hidden 'factor adjusted AR' system, not more not less. And no, I did NOT look up proposed square wire selections on the C&T site, just estimated what could work or be tested by me first.

All that could be SOOO easy - given the numbers were known...

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper Mfe.s Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Pj Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hi

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:28 pm
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we need both the numbers and someone with the physical rings who is willing to make half a dozen instances of JPL, euro4 and byz to see how ideal and min sqAR compare to the standard AR data.

who is willing to do the squarewire legwork for this.. ice is not opposed to releasing the numbers, but we should have a plan on what we will do with them.. he says that in the past the numbers have caused returns and returns are genuinely expensive for a business.

anyone with calipers and square rings can give us data.. we really don't need c&t to develop this. c&t could help, if they chose.. if they know that X rings make a pretty tight e4, post the ring stats.. i saw a nice gridlock byzantine in squarewire that seemed pretty dense.. ring stats on any of these weaves, especially stats for rings making a tight weave would be wonderful.. then we can start drawing some comparisons and possibly come up with a rough number to convert round AR to sqAR.

so, if we were given the data we want, what would we do with it? who has the square rings to play with and test?


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 01, 2008
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Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:45 pm
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I have some 20g square sterling wire I purchased from monsterslayer. I made a JPL bracelet with it and it turned out nice. I can give the data for that.

By now, I think a thread spinoff is in order though.

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Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:21 pm
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Well, if I were given the data I want, I'd probably buy some rings!

At least I would have before. It was originally even my idea to make the list of sizes that correlate to their lettering system!

~Edited by lorraine

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Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:52 pm
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chrisdrymon wrote:
Well, if I were given the data I want, I'd probably buy some rings!

Yes, you did not get the information you asked for. They have a right to refuse the information. You have a right to not buy from them. I ask that you please let this be the last word on that.

Quote:
At least I would have before. It was originally even my idea to make the list of sizes that correlate to their lettering system!

I don't see anyone denying that you brought the subject up.

Quote:
~Edited by lorraine

As Daemon_Lotos has already said: "I urge you to keep those words to yourself... C&T are good friends of the community... As are most (if-not-all) suppliers... I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with them, but there is a line between venting and badmouthing... Please make sure you know where it is." Please let this be the last time one of your posts needs to be edited for this reason.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
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Joined: December 22, 2007
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Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:58 pm
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Some links I found:

http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=14435 Viperscale
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=15201#199768 JPL5
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=15748#206453 CIR
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=13294#176751 JPL
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=13803#183310 E4-1 and Byzantine
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=15060#198010 HP8-1
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=13924#184547 Crotalus, Elfin, and Byzantine Cross
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=13885#184115 JPL5
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=13281#176508 CIR
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=13155#175221 Celtic Star
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=13103#174593 Gracelock
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=12670#169740 Dragonscale 18awg 1/4"ID and 18awg 4.5mm ID
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=12736 Double Spiral 4 in 1
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=12708#170074 Persian Dragonscale
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=12699#169920 Byzantine
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=12698#170026 Elfweave
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=12525 HP4-1
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=12139 Byzantine
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=10886 JPL
http://www.mailleartisans.org/gallery/gallerydisplay.php?key=683 HP4-1
http://www.mailleartisans.org/gallery/gallerydisplay.php?key=853 Byzantine
http://www.mailleartisans.org/gallery/gallerydisplay.php?key=1073 HP4-1
http://www.mailleartisans.org/gallery/gallerydisplay.php?key=2598 E6-1
http://www.mailleartisans.org/gallery/gallerydisplay.php?key=2878 E4-1
http://www.mailleartisans.org/gallery/gallerydisplay.php?key=7002 Inverted Round
http://www.mailleartisans.org/gallery/gallerydisplay.php?key=7191 HP5-1 Symmetrical
http://www.mailleartisans.org/gallery/gallerydisplay.php?key=7194 Double Spiral
http://www.mailleartisans.org/gallery/gallerydisplay.php?key=7206 HP3-1
http://www.mailleartisans.org/gallery/gallerydisplay.php?key=7210 HP4-1
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=13893 Square wire winding tool.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
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Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:07 pm
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Chris: What I was able to do (measuring the rings by pixel counting in an enlarged view of the ring reference image) should be possible for you as well, so the ring data are principally already available (sure that's some work that would not be needed to be done by customers, but it's legitimate for a provider to hide if he thinks that being counterproductive - until proven wrong).

We begin now to go a step further, as it's known already, that obviously rings with a specific letter in C&T's square wire size coding scheme fall into a narrow AR range irrespective of wire size, so a weave doable with e.g. E16 rings can be made MUCH likely with E18, E19 or E20 as well (except maybe a sample is woven at low or high AR limit of that particular weave, and depending on precision of the scaled ring might just not more work). And btw: After HAVING looked up C&T's weave chart, my estimates on useable ring types were already right in two of three cases, and in one case I estimated one step too low (but after looking at the FP6-1 weave sample photo they provide I'd bet that my proposed selection would be weavable as well)...

Now it's time to determine, how some specific weaves with known round-wire ARs react to being woven with square wire, and how similar behaving weave samples differ in AR - in the end to get some useful hints that help maillers to avoid purchasing (or making) rings that won't work. The results can/will be published on MAIL, useful for people that make their own rings from wire, and could surely be referenced to by providers of square wire rings.

So this expansion of our knowledgebase is a win-win situation - IF we manage to collect and provide the data in a 'central spot'.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper Mfe.s Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Pj Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hi

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3601
Submissions: 150
Location: Germany, Herxheim

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Posted on Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:52 pm || Last edited by ZiLi on Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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EDIT: Fine. The post I replied to has vanished while I wrote...

Well the crux is that there are two differing (main) opinions, and both are valid to a degree, but none to 100%. So while it's the right of a provider to hide some data (or call it business secrets), for the interest of easy ring selection of REbuilders of a given weave, it's also the right of a customer to ask for data the user feels vital for product selection. That gas station example isn't the worst analogon for that...

In my opinion it wouldn't hurt the provider's interests in any way, to provide the here requested data ADDITIONALLY to their given ones. And it would satisfy the customers who (think to) need these additional data. And while I'd like to see them besides the rings in the provider's online shop, I'd be also satified if they were told in private mail to customers that request, without the need to explain why they believe to need them.

Personally, I decided now to get WIRE, wherever I get it, and coil&cut myself (btw. if c&t offers wire for a competitive price, I have NO problem buying there). But I will abstain from buying ready-made rings at any shop that won't provide the data I wish to know or even think to need (regardless whether due to inability or unwillingness), before I click the 'buy' button.

-ZiLi-

[I had nearly written 'irregardless'; iphone users should be able to look up that non-word in their phone's dictionary...] Very Happy


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper Mfe.s Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Pj Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hi

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: November 14, 2011
Posts: 19
Submissions: 2

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Posted on Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:58 am
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Yeah, Lorraine deleted my post that you were replying to. I thought it was a very fitting analogy.

I'm working on a compilation of places to get square wire rings in various materials. One place I found was an etsy shop named Unkamen Supplies. He's gotten over 20,000 feedbacks and 99.8% of them are positive.

Unfortunately his little etsy shop is a bit disorganized (perhaps that is the nature of etsy). However, from the searching around I did I found sterling, argentium, stainless (impressively high-polished ones, much more so than the ones I got from TRL), plain copper, brass, silver-plated copper, and a couple colored coppers. And he's not afraid to say what size they are, lol. He'll even say what alloy sometimes, and his cutting methods, clear coating, etc. From the looks of it I'd guess he does a lot of custom orders. Ooo... he's expensive though.

I think earlier, ZiLi, you mentioned your difficulties in finding square wire. He might be good!

Joined: January 21, 2004
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Posted on Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:53 am
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Man, I come back from being awol and this is what I find? I would have been chastised by DL several times by now for being discourteous.

chrisdrymon, what's stopping you from ordering a sample of rings and measuring them yourself? For that matter, you just said that it doesn't matter the exact ring size as long as they're small. So ask C&T for their recommendation of a small ring that makes whatever weave you've picked, and roll with it. They have suggested ring sizes for various weaves, are you so much more particular than they are about what ring size is 'proper' for the weave? No, you aren't (or rather your girl isn't). So other than needlessly stirring the pot, what's the point of all your ranting?

For the record, I do personally find arbitrary and obscure sizing conventions annoying. But they give you the recommendations of what size to use for which weave, so that obviates most of the problem. If you want to make a weave they don't have a suggestion for, then find a listed weave that has the same AR, and use those rings.

If they're not going to hold your hand, use your own ingenuity. Sheesh.

-phong



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Posted on Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:58 am
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Phong wrote:
Man, I come back from being awol and this is what I find? I would have been chastised by DL several times by now for being discourteous.

chrisdrymon, what's stopping you from ordering a sample of rings and measuring them yourself? For that matter, you just said that it doesn't matter the exact ring size as long as they're small. So ask C&T for their recommendation of a small ring that makes whatever weave you've picked, and roll with it. They have suggested ring sizes for various weaves, are you so much more particular than they are about what ring size is 'proper' for the weave? No, you aren't (or rather your girl isn't). So other than needlessly stirring the pot, what's the point of all your ranting?

For the record, I do personally find arbitrary and obscure sizing conventions annoying. But they give you the recommendations of what size to use for which weave, so that obviates most of the problem. If you want to make a weave they don't have a suggestion for, then find a listed weave that has the same AR, and use those rings.

If they're not going to hold your hand, use your own ingenuity. Sheesh.

-phong


DL has been working round the clock at real-job...
Phong, stop being discourteous.


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