Weave Tags
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
   
Author Message

Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4602
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:18 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

ZiLi wrote:
[rant] Just a note on 'Moebius', and its multitude of mutations, adding to shake's rant. Let me (as non-native English writer!) teach some grammar basics: 'Moebius' is a real person's name, so all alterations like building an adjective or verb upon MUST NOT change the basic name - so neither omitting the 'e' of Moebius or even more letters is allowed, nor replacing the 's' by a 'z'.

The valid variations include moebiused or moebiusing, and maybe some more. But moebiuzing, or mobifying, or even more ridiculous alterations are simply invalid.

I guess we should mobilize the crowd to ban that mobbing - the poor man would spin in his grave if he knew what is done to his name here... [/rant]

-ZiLi-

Mobius is a completely acceptable spelling of the noun. For our purposes here, it is not someone's last name, it is a maille representation of a mobius strip. It has been spelled that way from DAY ONE on MAIL and it should stay that way. As for how to change mobius into a verb, mobiused would have been my first choice, but I don't really care enough to suggest it be changed from its current "mobized".


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4602
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:01 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

All of the terms used on this page: http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/ need to be defined, in writing, on one page. I have asked for this in the past. I am not trying to be mean to Narrina, but all I got back were some quotes from the Weaves Submission Guidelines and some dictionary quotes. That was not at all helpful. The definitions should take into consideration how they have been defined in the past, and should draw on as much already collected information as possible.

I still do not understand the terms Mage, Alpha, Modification vs. Variant, Helm, Rhino, Band vs. Chain, Radial, and Spiked. As CShake pointed out above, I'm not the only one confused about this.

Progression is something that I proposed in this thread: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=14774. I am NOT claiming I am the first person to have ever had the idea or applied the term. I'm just pointing out a thread that can lead to an acceptable definition of Progression.

I know Narrina has done A LOT of work tagging the weaves and that she is busy trying to set up a business, and busy with life in general, but weaves admins do not stay around forever and if information is not written down then it is easily lost. This is important.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 2260
Submissions: 96
Location: Standish, Michigan, USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:07 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

CShake, I have read the weave theory articles and posts you mentioned a multitudinous amount of times and frequently go back to re-read them. I have never once said I was discounting their work. Quite the contrary, I have found reading their thoughts on the topic most invaluable. However, putting concepts of weave theory into organizational practice are two completely different things, especially when each person's view of weave theory and weave organization always vary.

Weave organization has to be based upon the weave connections and interactions, not upon the numerous varying ideas about weaves. The way various ring interactions behave don't really change, but our understanding of them does.

About the terms "variant," and "modification." These terms came about during a very, very lengthy discussion a couple years ago when we were rewriting the weaves submission policy.

In regards to the term "alpha," we had to have a way to tag the actual true weaves (the weaves off of with the variants and modifications are based) that would cause the least confusion (or arguments as it was thought that simply using "weave" as tag might causes some issues) so Lotos suggested using the term "alpha."

Most of the rest of the terms you've mentioned, while they may not be in the glossary or term definition articles (and, yes, I agree that at some point they should be added), are not new terms. We've used them for years when discussing various sub-groupings of weaves or specific methods for modifying a weave. They are typically named after the first example of that interaction or type of modification.

Now yes, "mage" is a new term (and a few others), but it was not added lightly. It was discussed at length before being implemented and I was hesitant to bring it up to begin with as it required a pretty major change to the previous views on weave families. However, I was not going to compound old mistakes by repeating them. This is one of the threads where I tried to explain some of what lead to the new term of "mage": http://mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=16215

When I started trying to find a viable method of reorganization for the weave library, I found many of the ways I'd previously looked at weaves challenged. Clearly, the old methods of weave classification and organization weren't working or we wouldn't have had to re-organize everything. I did not discard the old classifications, I added to them as not everything fell into those categories. I had to look at the weaves apart from previous ideas about them to try and find what needed to be fixed. To base an organizational system on previous ideas or methods is rather subjective as we each view them differently and would be bound to repeat old mistakes. Yes, some changes were made to previous ideas about weave theory, but not because I chose to throw them out, but because what I saw when examining the weaves themselves was that not everything fit into those ideas. There were inconsistencies in the weave families (which, by the way, is not weave theory but weave classification) and so change had to be made to correct them.

Tess, Chao, Phong, and all the others you mentioned did a great job, however, the library had outgrown the previous classification system. As more weaves are added to the library more interactions are discovered. Categories had to be added because now we had more information to examine to find that some classification categories were missing.

You asked for examples of where I have listened to others and changed my position on things. Here are some examples.

Earlier in this thread we discussed the issue of Spiral as a family. I had initially removed it as a family, and instead classified as simply a structural interaction, but not a family interaction. However, after carefully reading Lorraine's defense of the Spiral family I went back and reexamined that family and made changes accordingly. The details of such can be read in this thread

Also, at the onset of determining what tags needed to be used. Neither "helm" nor "rhino" were included, it was after a rather long discussion with ZiLi over PM's that they were added to the list of tags (this noted on the bottom of page 5 of this thread). Previous to this discussion, I had considered Helm to be a European-Japanese hybrid and had tagged it as such, but, after the previously mentioned lengthy discussion with ZiLi, I found myself in agreement with him and so made the necessary changes.

In regards, to the lack of definition for the terms you mentioned. I agree that they should be added to the glossary and a new weave term definition article written. I've never thought otherwise.

As to my choosing to type in green. I'm sorry if the colour hurts your eyes after a while. It is certainly not my intention to make anyone's eyes hurt. So, is this colour better?

Oh, and as to what the term "Mobius" and what verb form should or should not be used. I really don't think it's that big of a deal. I don't really care how you choose to spell it so long as it is clear what you are meaning. If you'd like the spelling of the term changed, then talk to Lotos about changing it, because to me the spelling of it is not an issue and would be a silly thing to argue over.



Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

Handmaden Designs LLC
Facebook
Twitter
Pinterest
Handmade Artists Shop
Amazon Author Page

Joined: October 02, 2003
Posts: 119
Submissions: 16
Location: Capital Region, NY

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:51 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Nárrína wrote:
CShake, I have read the weave theory articles and posts you mentioned a multitudinous amount of times and frequently go back to re-read them. I have never once said I was discounting their work. Quite the contrary, I have found reading their thoughts on the topic most invaluable. However, putting concepts of weave theory into organizational practice are two completely different things, especially when each person's view of weave theory and weave organization always vary.

I stand corrected, and after reading more of your older posts, see that you did indeed cite them at times. Thank you. I made my position based on a cursory glance of topics as I said before, and many of those posts didn't seem to indicate it.

Nárrína wrote:
Most of the rest of the terms you've mentioned, while they may not be in the glossary or term definition articles (and, yes, I agree that at some point they should be added), are not new terms. We've used them for years when discussing various sub-groupings of weaves or specific methods for modifying a weave. ...

The current system has been "finished" for nearly 5 months, based on your earlier post in this thread. I do not have an issue with the names themselves, and after searching through MusicMan's thread and looking through the weaves with each tag, I feel like I understand what each means. You say here that you will eventually write up the definitions, and I very much believe that you will.
But what about all the new maillers that may have come to MAIL within those last 5 months, tried to find a weave that they saw somewhere online, and had no idea what the tags meant? Saying "I'll define my system after it's done", especially on MAIL where "done" sometimes takes years, leaves a huge amount of people out in the dark in the meantime. You'll note that even DL, a notorious procrastinator, put up a page explaining the bbcode additions as soon as they went live - it's important. I, for one, believe that it's absolutely necessary for there to be a link on the "weaves home" page for a Legend of sorts, with an explanation of what each term means - this may be to MusicMan's compilation thread for now, but it has to be something.
Another part of it is that you've been using these tags for months to categorize weaves, right? What does it say to people when you can't concretely define what the criteria are for the tags to be applied? I, personally, know that you're not assigning tags arbitrarily, but for someone going to the library for the first time and not familiar with the forum, there's absolutely zero proof of that. Even when you do go to the forums, the only real definitions appear at first glance to be what the other members can guess about what they mean.


Nárrína wrote:
If you'd like the spelling of [Mobized] changed, then talk to Lotos about changing it, because to me the spelling of it is not an issue and would be a silly thing to argue over.

I completely agree that it's a silly thing to argue over, and my post was not intended to make you change the name - it was to highlight a related point to the tag name definitions, namely the "why it's called that". If it doesn't really matter what a tag is actually called, why is the weave tagged with it? (that's a completely bogus philosophical exaggeration though) Wink


For the color thing: it's not that green actually hurts my eyes, it's that the board has a color scheme because it makes everything readable and uniform. If someone wants to add their own theme because it makes the text more readable (higher contrast, a screen reader, other assists for people with visions problems), it would change the default theme. If they prefer their background green, or any other color, your custom color would stay the way you set it. See, this whole post looks perfect if I use a white background, so if it doesn't work for you, well, I'm sorry that I like to be unique as well.

Oh, and if it's not apparent already, I take things to the logical extreme on a matter of principle and because I enjoy a healthy debate, it's not personal. Smile



Maille Code V2.0 T5.9 R5.1 En.o Fcir MFe.s Wgm$ Cab$w G0.2-2.0 I1.2-14.1 N(many).~25 Pdjs Dacdejst Xg(many)t1w5 S03
deviantArt

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:39 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

lorraine wrote:
ZiLi wrote:
[rant] Just a note on 'Moebius', and its multitude of mutations, adding to shake's rant. Let me (as non-native English writer!) teach some grammar basics: 'Moebius' is a real person's name, so all alterations like building an adjective or verb upon MUST NOT change the basic name - so neither omitting the 'e' of Moebius or even more letters is allowed, nor replacing the 's' by a 'z'. (...)

Mobius is a completely acceptable spelling of the noun. For our purposes here, it is not someone's last name, it is a maille representation of a mobius strip. It has been spelled that way from DAY ONE on MAIL and it should stay that way. As for how to change mobius into a verb, mobiused would have been my first choice, but I don't really care enough to suggest it be changed from its current "mobized".


Doing things wrong from day one doesn't make them less wrong. Until now I was convinced, that MAIL as organization sees one of its major goals in teaching people 'the right stuff'. Ignorance due to lack of knowledge may be excuseable - conscious ignorance of KNOWN facts is definitely not - ESPECIALLY for an organization with our goal set.

But compared to some other problems this is a minor sideshow. I guess that one of the major problems of our database organisation is the question, what purpose it currently serves, and what it shall serve. See that the former organization was purely family-oriented, providing alphabetically sorted lists of more or less loosely related weaves - but nothing more. Now it evolves into a structure oriented one. Family orientation has major problems with the multitude of weaves that cannot be sorted into one category, so many weaves ended up in the 'Hybrid' category, in a very unordered list. One of the major goals of the database reorganization shall serve the sorting of these many entries into fitting structural categories. It should be clear, that this reorg is not yet finished - especially the user interface continues to lack some features. So please give the coders some time to bring the interface up to the database's already achieved standard. Make proposals, to be discussed, and eventually included. But don't make the mistake to bedevil the changes, unless they are finished.

I do NOT know, which approach is the 'better', 'right', or 'THE' one, but I know, that principally the new approach allows different user interfaces, while the old one was simply limited - too limited for a continued integer database structure growth.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4602
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:59 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

ZiLi wrote:
Doing things wrong from day one doesn't make them less wrong. Until now I was convinced, that MAIL as organization sees one of its major goals in teaching people 'the right stuff'. Ignorance due to lack of knowledge may be excuseable - conscious ignorance of KNOWN facts is definitely not - ESPECIALLY for an organization with our goal set.

The spelling of Mobius is not wrong. And I'm tired of wasting my time talking about fixing things that do not need to be fixed. So this is, I'm sure to everyone's relief, my last word about it.

Now, could we please get back to the discussion points that Cshake has brought up?


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:22 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Look up grammar rules for eponyms. I didn't make them, and I deny violating them, if I know better. So please don't state things as a matter of fact, if you aren't able to back them with facts. Nuff said about THAT.

And btw: I did not only reply to that (minor) issue, but also to the ones regarding the database structure changes. Did you ignore them? I told, that a database structure change was simply necessary, as the database has outgrown the old structure. I told that the only major lack of the new structure is its user interface - I may add here, that besides finding a good interface some tweaking and adjustments of the structure may be or become necessary during the interface building process. Is that wrong?

So, if the users experience problems when accessing the database, they should tell us about, pointing at the particular problem, and maybe even giving proposals how to deal with. Changes to solve problems are simply a matter of knowledge about them.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 2260
Submissions: 96
Location: Standish, Michigan, USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:16 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

CShake wrote:

Nárrína wrote:
Most of the rest of the terms you've mentioned, while they may not be in the glossary or term definition articles (and, yes, I agree that at some point they should be added), are not new terms. We've used them for years when discussing various sub-groupings of weaves or specific methods for modifying a weave. ... [/color]


The current system has been "finished" for nearly 5 months, based on your earlier post in this thread. I do not have an issue with the names themselves, and after searching through MusicMan's thread and looking through the weaves with each tag, I feel like I understand what each means. You say here that you will eventually write up the definitions, and I very much believe that you will.
But what about all the new maillers that may have come to MAIL within those last 5 months, tried to find a weave that they saw somewhere online, and had no idea what the tags meant? Saying "I'll define my system after it's done", especially on MAIL where "done" sometimes takes years, leaves a huge amount of people out in the dark in the meantime. You'll note that even DL, a notorious procrastinator, put up a page explaining the bbcode additions as soon as they went live - it's important. I, for one, believe that it's absolutely necessary for there to be a link on the "weaves home" page for a Legend of sorts, with an explanation of what each term means - this may be to MusicMan's compilation thread for now, but it has to be something.
Another part of it is that you've been using these tags for months to categorize weaves, right? What does it say to people when you can't concretely define what the criteria are for the tags to be applied? I, personally, know that you're not assigning tags arbitrarily, but for someone going to the library for the first time and not familiar with the forum, there's absolutely zero proof of that. Even when you do go to the forums, the only real definitions appear at first glance to be what the other members can guess about what they mean.


I understand what you are saying. It hasn't been done yet not because of any intentional oversight, it's simply that things have been busy and I just plain forgot. It's also that I don't know how to add them to the glossary page (I have looked). I'll try and get something up soon.

MusicMan: I really think you have an excellent start for a weave theory and weave terminology article. If we can help fill in the blank spaces do you think you could submit it to the articles?



Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

Handmaden Designs LLC
Facebook
Twitter
Pinterest
Handmade Artists Shop
Amazon Author Page

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3016
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:05 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Nárrína wrote:
CShake wrote:


Nárrína wrote:

Most of the rest of the terms you've mentioned, while they may not be in the glossary or term definition articles (and, yes, I agree that at some point they should be added), are not new terms. We've used them for years when discussing various sub-groupings of weaves or specific methods for modifying a weave. ... [/color]



The current system has been "finished" for nearly 5 months, based on your earlier post in this thread. I do not have an issue with the names themselves, and after searching through MusicMan's thread and looking through the weaves with each tag, I feel like I understand what each means. You say here that you will eventually write up the definitions, and I very much believe that you will.
But what about all the new maillers that may have come to MAIL within those last 5 months, tried to find a weave that they saw somewhere online, and had no idea what the tags meant? Saying "I'll define my system after it's done", especially on MAIL where "done" sometimes takes years, leaves a huge amount of people out in the dark in the meantime. You'll note that even DL, a notorious procrastinator, put up a page explaining the bbcode additions as soon as they went live - it's important. I, for one, believe that it's absolutely necessary for there to be a link on the "weaves home" page for a Legend of sorts, with an explanation of what each term means - this may be to MusicMan's compilation thread for now, but it has to be something.
Another part of it is that you've been using these tags for months to categorize weaves, right? What does it say to people when you can't concretely define what the criteria are for the tags to be applied? I, personally, know that you're not assigning tags arbitrarily, but for someone going to the library for the first time and not familiar with the forum, there's absolutely zero proof of that. Even when you do go to the forums, the only real definitions appear at first glance to be what the other members can guess about what they mean.



I understand what you are saying. It hasn't been done yet not because of any intentional oversight, it's simply that things have been busy and I just plain forgot. It's also that I don't know how to add them to the glossary page (I have looked). I'll try and get something up soon.

MusicMan: I really think you have an excellent start for a weave theory and weave terminology article. If we can help fill in the blank spaces do you think you could submit it to the articles?


Glossary is easy to use... When it's up... It is currently not, as it is partially linked to Articles.

I'd suggest you submit an article instead... But...
Well, you see where this is going Coif LoL

Perhaps a stickied thread in the weaves forum containing definitions of each of the terms might be the best way to go for the time being.


Useful Links
Site Help: [ BBCode Help | Weave AR/Ring Size Popup | Login Issues ]
Weave AR Search is back: Try it out!

Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 2260
Submissions: 96
Location: Standish, Michigan, USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:20 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Lol, well, that explains why I couldn't add anything to the glossary. Yup, a stickied thread looks like the best option right now; even with a new weave terms article, a stickied thread would still be useful.


Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

Handmaden Designs LLC
Facebook
Twitter
Pinterest
Handmade Artists Shop
Amazon Author Page

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:43 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

narrina, would you be open to the membership starting to work out these definitions? you could start a thread and update the first post periodically with the current working definitions. this gives a clear record of the discussion for anyone wishing to understand theory better..

you would still be writing the definitions in the original post, but members could help with phrasing suggestions. this potentially alleviates you of some of the momentum building responsibility, while leaving control of the definitions in your hands.

in the first post, also link to the other theory threads, or the list lorraine compiled awhile back.. tie it in, so any noob has a clear path to follow to become a pro.

in other news, i am not in favor of changing the spelling of "mobius".. however, i would like to add those extra 'u's in colour and armour. we look too american for an international group. any love for this proposal, canadia?


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3016
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:58 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

sakredchao wrote:
however, i would like to add those extra 'u's in colour and armour. we look too american for an international group. any love for this proposal, canadia?


You'll find I did that silently a long time ago... The new Gallery Tags are also "correctly" spelled...

I actually recall a certain Former_Gallery_Admin expresing disdain at "Jewelry" being spelled wrong... I had, of course, corrected it to "Jewellery"


Useful Links
Site Help: [ BBCode Help | Weave AR/Ring Size Popup | Login Issues ]
Weave AR Search is back: Try it out!

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:20 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

then, i have no complaints. carry on, master codesmith.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4602
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:30 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
sakredchao wrote:
however, i would like to add those extra 'u's in colour and armour. we look too american for an international group. any love for this proposal, canadia?


You'll find I did that silently a long time ago... The new Gallery Tags are also "correctly" spelled...

I actually recall a certain Former_Gallery_Admin expresing disdain at "Jewelry" being spelled wrong... I had, of course, corrected it to "Jewellery"

I have adopted this as well. Razz


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 2260
Submissions: 96
Location: Standish, Michigan, USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:07 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I have no problem with that whatsoever, Chao.


Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

Handmaden Designs LLC
Facebook
Twitter
Pinterest
Handmade Artists Shop
Amazon Author Page

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 8 of 9. Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:34 pm
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
Display posts from previous: