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Posted on Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:18 pm
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Thanks! I will add them to the list. Smile


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MailleCode V2.0 T5.3 R4.4 E0.0 Feur MFe.sBr Wg Cwb G.7-5.1 I3.1-11 N20.5 Pj Dcdjt Xa1w2 S08

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Posted on Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:05 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
lorraine wrote:
I think a valid case could be made either way for Spiral being its own family or being an irregular ring interaction similar to Inverted. But, I would really really miss Spiral as a family. Very Happy


But what difference does it make if it's an interaction, or a family? Razz Either way, it's a 'tag' that's searchable.


This. Were families not originally developed as sort of primitive tags? A way to group weaves with similar interactions together? Now, this doesn't mean I want to toss out the family terms, but want to see them defined as what they mean as a ring interaction. And yes, that means I would rate a spiral interaction on the same level as a European interaction.

I know, everybody else is probably tired of this discussion. Smile


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Posted on Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:52 pm
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'Tired of'? Maybe. But better call it 'immersed into, and running in circles' - I guess this is valid for a couple of admins and some non-admin members here. Very Happy

And your note on families and pseudo-tags is right on the money - what was originally a weave family membership (more often than once producing problems for multi-family aka hybrid weaves), now evolves into membership in one and/or other popular tag listing on the weave entry page. Even lorraine will have her beloved spirals there (that I somehow begin to like as well) - just as one of the popular basic tags that were formerly known as families. Smile

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
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A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
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Posted on Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:10 pm
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Would it be necessary to break down types of captives?
Sandwiched (Japanese 8 in 2 Captive 1 for instance) and caged (like Captive Inverted Round).

Or is captive enough description? Or am I going completely off track with this? Smile


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"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

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Posted on Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:07 pm
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ElementalDragon wrote:
Would it be necessary to break down types of captives?
Sandwiched (Japanese 8 in 2 Captive 1 for instance) and caged (like Captive Inverted Round).

Or is captive enough description? Or am I going completely off track with this? Smile

I think, but am not positive, that the "Helm" tag is meant to be the sandwiched form of Captive weaves.


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Posted on Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:00 pm
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A suggestion for another weave tag after reading this post:
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?p=213763#213763
Tutorial
I think it would be great if someone could click search all weaves with tutorials and have the list pop up. (The articles admin would need to have permission to add this tag to weaves when a new article is submitted for a weave that doesn't have one yet.)

Sidenote: Narrina, maybe you could designate an admin to help you with the "no-brainer" tagging? Like the Tutorial tag? And the Beginner tag- you could approve a list of weaves that should be tagged Beginner (and have tutorials) and task them with that job too?


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Posted on Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:21 pm
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lorraine: I wholeheatedly agree. Besides the Beginner tag a Tutorial tag would surely be fine. And so even clear Beginner weaves could be tagged as Beginner ones, even if there were no (not yet) tutorials for.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: July 23, 2006
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Posted on Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:40 pm
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Lorraine: your suggestion of a Tutorial tag sounds like a good idea.

lorraine wrote:
ElementalDragon wrote:
Would it be necessary to break down types of captives?
Sandwiched (Japanese 8 in 2 Captive 1 for instance) and caged (like Captive Inverted Round).

Or is captive enough description? Or am I going completely off track with this? Smile

I think, but am not positive, that the "Helm" tag is meant to be the sandwiched form of Captive weaves.


That's partly correct, however not all Helm weaves are actually Captive weaves. Celtic Visions and it's derivatives are not Captive weaves, but they are a form of Helm weave. Dragonscale is also a Helm weave, yet it is not a Captive weave.


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We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

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Posted on Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:02 pm
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Could we have some clarification on how you are defining Helm, and even Rhino? Because I would tag European and Orbital on Dragonscale, although I know Helm/Parallel Chain can be looked at as a cross grain chain of DS. Structurally, however, I'd tag Helm as Japanese and Orbital and perhaps Captive (or Sandwiched, if you choose to differentiate between captive types).


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

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Posted on Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:13 am
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Rhinoing is (imho) defined as one or more rings orbiting a STACKED eye, in result being also quasi-captured, and so stabilizing the stacked eye in its orientation. So Rhino tagging were valid for all Rhino, Barrel, Orbiter, Rover, Fox weave variants - and a couple more.

Helm weaves have a 'basis cell' in common, that consists of two cocentric rings, one fitting inside the other and quasi-captured, and rotated 90 degrees against each other. Not more not less; this basis cell is not stable on its own, but becomes stable in multiple combined iterations.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 2277
Submissions: 97
Location: Standish, Michigan, USA

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Posted on Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:38 pm
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Exactly as ZiLi said.

The Rhino and Helm interactions are not stable on their own and so need a host interaction. Just as the Inverted interaction is not stable on its own but requires a host interaction to make it stable.

Helm/Parallel Chain, family wise, is a European weave (it is, structurally, European 4-1 made from two ARs with the added Orbital/Captive like Sandwiched ring) with a special structure tag of Helm. But, yes, Helm itself could almost be considered an Orbital or Captive except that nearly all of the other Helm weaves are neither yet are still Helm weaves. Thus, Helm needs to be classified separately from Captive or Orbital, although it is certainly a closely related interaction.

Dragonscale, if you look closely, is not actually a true Orbital or Captive weave as every ring is connected to each other and so there is no actual orbit or capture. The sandwiching merely gives it the initial appearance of being either Orbital or Captive. Dragonscale would be tagged as being European family, with a special/structure interaction of Helm, and Scaled attribute.

I used to see these weaves as being Euro-Japanese weaves, but the more I look at them the less I see any Japanese structure in them, and after talking with ZiLi I find that I agree with him about Helm being its own peculiar quasi/pseudo-Captive/Orbital interaction.



Insistence is futile.

We are the Quartz, lower your shovels and surrender your rocks. We will add your gemological and mineralogical distinctiveness to our own. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is rutile.

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Posted on Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:23 pm
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ZiLi wrote:
Rhinoing is (imho) defined as one or more rings orbiting a STACKED eye, in result being also quasi-captured, and so stabilizing the stacked eye in its orientation. So Rhino tagging were valid for all Rhino, Barrel, Orbiter, Rover, Fox weave variants - and a couple more.

I think I would be more likely to call it an overlap instead of a stack, but I think I understand what you are getting at, here.

ZiLi wrote:

Helm weaves have a 'basis cell' in common, that consists of two cocentric rings, one fitting inside the other and quasi-captured, and rotated 90 degrees against each other. Not more not less; this basis cell is not stable on its own, but becomes stable in multiple combined iterations.

But here I'm really not sure quite exactly what you are seeing. And in both these instances, I think things are getting more complex than they really need to be.

Nárrína wrote:
[color=lightgreen]
Helm/Parallel Chain, family wise, is a European weave (it is, structurally, European 4-1 made from two ARs with the added Orbital/Captive like Sandwiched ring) with a special structure tag of Helm.

And I'd argue that it is a 4-in-2 chain of two differing sizes with an orbital around the smaller rings that separates the paired larger rings. I'd also argue that this has about as much relation to European structure as you perceive Magemaille to.

Nárrína wrote:
[color=lightgreen]
Dragonscale, if you look closely, is not actually a true Orbital or Captive weave as every ring is connected to each other and so there is no actual orbit or capture. The sandwiching merely gives it the initial appearance of being either Orbital or Captive. Dragonscale would be tagged as being European family, with a special/structure interaction of Helm, and Scaled attribute.

I believe that a ring may orbit one ring while being connected to other rings, or be captive by a group of rings, but connected to rings outside those capturing rings. Orbital and captive interactions, in my eyes, do not exclude linking connections.

But I think I can follow your reasoning for what you are doing, even though I disagree with it Smile


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

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Posted on Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:55 pm
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dunno, if this is the rite place, but i have to say that i'm gettin disgusted by the weaves-library. This library is no longer bout common weaves & new weaves, but every idiot is adapting weaves, adding sum rings here, sum there and uploading "his" stuff to the lib to get the fame and the name. That doesn't help anyone and i doubt that the lib is meant to be a challenge-room. Why not setup a B-side lib for the tons of (imo) useless variants and keep the main lib restricted?

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Posted on Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:17 pm
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Luziviech wrote:
dunno, if this is the rite place, but i have to say that i'm gettin disgusted by the weaves-library. This library is no longer bout common weaves & new weaves, but every idiot is adapting weaves, adding sum rings here, sum there and uploading "his" stuff to the lib to get the fame and the name. That doesn't help anyone and i doubt that the lib is meant to be a challenge-room. Why not setup a B-side lib for the tons of (imo) useless variants and keep the main lib restricted?


And are you the idiot who is going to define what is useless? This sort of thing has come up, before, and the development of 3.0 is the solution this community of idiots has come up with. As DL gets the 3.0 features up and running, you will be able to sort out variants and not have to look at them. In the meantime, patience is a virtue.


Comprehensive Diameter Database: Web Page | Online Spreadsheet | About the database

"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

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Posted on Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:05 am
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Luziviech wrote:
dunno, if this is the rite place, but i have to say that i'm gettin disgusted by the weaves-library. This library is no longer bout common weaves & new weaves, but every idiot is adapting weaves, adding sum rings here, sum there and uploading "his" stuff to the lib to get the fame and the name. That doesn't help anyone and i doubt that the lib is meant to be a challenge-room. Why not setup a B-side lib for the tons of (imo) useless variants and keep the main lib restricted?


this is a valid complaint and something that will be fixed as the library is tagged. if you look at the specific tags you want, you should be able to narrow it down to the basic weaves you want. this is dependent on you making good use of the tags.

this, of course, is dependent on narrina getting the tagging finished.

i must also express frustration in using the weave library. without the tags finished it is the same garbage dump we have had for the better part of a decade.

alternately, "blahblahblah idoits" doesn't go over as well as "can i help make things run better?"

thanks for the feedback,
kim


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