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Joined: December 22, 2007
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Posted on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:00 pm
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Nárrína wrote:
[color=lightgreen]Lorraine, I don't see Spiral as a separate weave family but as an irregular ring interaction that overrides a pre-existing family ring connection and causes (quite a number) of special case sub-families within the original family (same thing with Inverted).

I think a valid case could be made either way for Spiral being its own family or being an irregular ring interaction similar to Inverted. But, I would really really miss Spiral as a family. Very Happy

Nárrína, what do you think about tags for "sandwich" and "cage"? They would both be special cases of captive rings. Sandwich like in Celtic and Helm weaves and cage in CIR, Captive Hilt, etc.

Regardless of agreement, disagreement, controversy, etc... Nárrína already has my support. My penchant for discussion does not change that.


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Joined: August 30, 2008
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:09 am
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lorraine wrote:
I think a valid case could be made either way for Spiral being its own family or being an irregular ring interaction similar to Inverted. But, I would really really miss Spiral as a family. Very Happy


But what difference does it make if it's an interaction, or a family? Razz Either way, it's a 'tag' that's searchable.



Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:53 am
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lotos, to me the difference is in getting people to understand weave family basics.. i thought that i had understood it when i based everything off of how rings in a 2-1 chain can interact with each other.

spiral, euro (TE), pers (AE), japanese, orbital, mage (the interaction identified in magemaille.. also existing in e4, etc).

in my mind these 2-1 chain orientations were the building blocks of every other weave. ways in which 3 rings can interact with each other.

i suppose i may not have understood it, and my views may need to be reassessed. i am open to that.


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3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: December 22, 2007
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:10 am
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sakredchao wrote:
lotos, to me the difference is in getting people to understand weave family basics..

That's what I think too. But then I've been accused more than once of being militant about trying to get people to understand weave family basics and AR. I think we might be in a serious minority. Razz

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
lorraine wrote:
I think a valid case could be made either way for Spiral being its own family or being an irregular ring interaction similar to Inverted. But, I would really really miss Spiral as a family. Very Happy


But what difference does it make if it's an interaction, or a family? Razz Either way, it's a 'tag' that's searchable.

That's just it... if knowledge of weave families is limited, then knowledge of what to search for is too.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:24 am
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lorraine, i think what it means is that we get to learn two systems. there is nothing stopping anyone from publishing competing organizational theories.

as we've both said... ultimately, it's narrinas call. so, whatever she decides to implement is the system we learn well enough to explain to the membership. at least for now.. i suspect that within the next 10 years we will understand classification enough to review the system.


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3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:44 am
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While "Weave Families" up until now have been our only method of classification... Going forward they will be but one weapon in a full arsenal.

The main weave page will offer much more than 'Family' as a clickable 'browseable' directory. And while spiral may no longer be regarded as a family base, it will still be presented as an option.

Weave theory is important, and I'm not trying to suggest otherwise, but in regards to the layout of the Weave DB... The average user doesn't really care if they're identifying weaves through Family or through common appearance... So long as when they click on a link, they get what they want.

Be it:
-Sheet
-European
-Persian
or
-Mobiused-ized-whatever Coif LoL

The ideal situation is when clicking on a word, results in a selection of weaves that all contain that word in common, laid out in an appropriate presentable format.



Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:00 am
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lotos, what constitutes a family?
is there a difference between family and attribute?

if we are going to separate 5 tags from the other 20, i think we should have a reason for it. if "byzantine" is just as valid a search term as "persian", why draw that line?

i'm not trying to say we shouldn't.. or that anything needs to be changed.. but it would be nice to be able to point to this thread, in the future.. when our membership says, "why is spiral not a family?".


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 30, 2008
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:05 am
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sakredchao wrote:
lotos, what constitutes a family?
is there a difference between family and attribute?


Obviously.
A family is a set of unique interactions. An attribute would be (as I understand it) an interaction shared be several weaves of different families.

sakredchao wrote:
if we are going to separate 5 tags from the other 20, i think we should have a reason for it. if "byzantine" is just as valid a search term as "persian", why draw that line?


I'll leave that 'reason' up to Narrina... But 'Byzantine' is NOT a tag under the proposed list... Persian is most definately (and has always been) a family.
Spiral, on the other hand, is a trait shared by several weaves across several families.

sakredchao wrote:
i'm not trying to say we shouldn't.. or that anything needs to be changed.. but it would be nice to be able to point to this thread, in the future.. when our membership says, "why is spiral not a family?".


Well the answer that sticks out is the one I just stated... It's the same reason that 'Sheet' isn't a family... It's something that multiple weaves, from multiple 'main family lines' are capable of doing.



Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:14 am
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what family is jpl? what family is the mobius interaction?

yes, ultimately any explanation will have to come from narrina on this..
i am not saying anything needs to be changed, but i would like to know the why of things.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 30, 2008
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:15 am
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sakredchao wrote:
what family is jpl? what family is the mobius interaction?

yes, ultimately any explanation will have to come from narrina on this..


Mobius is Through Eye, as is JPL... At least in my mind.



Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:34 am
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i think the disagreement comes from how we are defining family.

narrina seems to be basing the family definition on the first step away from the 2-1 chain. (j3-1, not j2-1... e4[trinity?], not e2.. hp3, not the unstable hp2 interaction that shows up in http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=100 )

while i do not subscribe to the theory, i can see how this model could skip spiral as a separate family.

am i getting closer, narrina?


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 30, 2008
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Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:37 am
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sakredchao wrote:
i think the disagreement comes from how we are defining family.

narrina seems to be basing the family definition on the first step away from the 2-1 chain. (j3-1, not j2-1... e4[trinity?], not e2.. hp3, not the unstable hp2 interaction that shows up in http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=100 )

while i do not subscribe to the theory, i can see how this model could skip spiral as a separate family.


You'll note I did the same in your other thread... With simple reasoning... The 'base' weave for a family, imho, shouldn't be 'theoretical'...



Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:48 am
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i should rephrase, perhaps.

my family model is based on the simplest interaction.

narrina seems to have chosen a model which uses the simplest stable weave.

also, i think you misinterpreted the purpose of the other thread.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: January 14, 2011
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:58 am
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If you're going to define families by ring interaction then shouldn't the only true 'families' of weaves be TE, AE, Orbital and Combo? Ultimately I think any definition of a family is at best nebulous and there's always going to be weaves the fit in multiple families and some that don't really fit in any.

Not an expert on the subject or anything but that's my $0.02 on the matter.

Joined: August 30, 2008
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Posted on Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:59 am
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sakredchao wrote:
i should rephrase, perhaps.

my family model is based on the simplest interaction.

narrina seems to have chosen a model which uses the simplest stable weave.

also, i think you misinterpreted the purpose of the other thread.


Agreed, I think I did... But it's also late, so it's a miracle I made sense.

I, personally, find Narrina's model to be the easier of the two to follow...
But I'll bow out of this conversation... I've said my piece... I'll leave it to you guys to hammer the restt out,a nd go back to making tagging possible Very Happy



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