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Posted on Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:43 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Derailed wrote:
FB would just be a nice place to expose some of the nice gallery images the community post here


Our Charter prevents this.
A submitter retains ALL rights to his images, and we are not allowed to post elsehwere regardless of the benefit, or whether that 'elsewhere' is linked to MAIL.


So if I were the FB operator and I sent a PM to Lorraine after she has posted some pictures, or like content I could not then add it to the FB page if she responds with permission to do so?

Does the charter prevent linking to mail content from other sources?
A small variety of images could be created to represent certain types of content that would be used on the FB page along with a link to the target on MAIL. On FB you would see the standard avatar for weaves(as an example) next to the name of the weave, and a link to the actual content on MAIL.

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Posted on Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:56 pm
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As things stand right now:
"All web content © 2000-2010 The Maille Artisans International League (M.A.I.L.). Articles, Weaves, Links, and Gallery submissions are the property of the author(s), and any reproduction requires their express written permission."

Providing a link to MAIL content is fine. That is not reproducing someone's work. But putting pictures or content from MAIL somewhere else, like FB, is reproducing someone's work, and is not allowed. That will only change if the Content Policy is changed. And changing the Content Policy cannot be done on a whim by the Board.


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Posted on Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:05 pm
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lorraine wrote:
As things stand right now:
"All web content © 2000-2010 The Maille Artisans International League (M.A.I.L.). Articles, Weaves, Links, and Gallery submissions are the property of the author(s), and any reproduction requires their express written permission."

Providing a link to MAIL content is fine. That is not reproducing someone's work. But putting pictures or content from MAIL somewhere else, like FB, is reproducing someone's work, and is not allowed. That will only change if the Content Policy is changed. And changing the Content Policy cannot be done on a whim by the Board.


What does written permission mean then? My point being that you get such from the author before you post their media. If they don't feel comfortable spreading to FB then you go with a standard link, and generic avatar. I am quite sure some participants here would be happy to agree to allow their pictures to be mirrored on other MAIL controlled media. I for one would not object, and would agree in advance to such a use.

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Posted on Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:13 pm
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lorraine wrote:

Providing a link to MAIL content is fine. That is not reproducing someone's work. But putting pictures or content from MAIL somewhere else, like FB, is reproducing someone's work, and is not allowed. That will only change if the Content Policy is changed. And changing the Content Policy cannot be done on a whim by the Board.


Just out of curiosity how does Google, every search engine, and millions of other sites do it? Google thumbnails every image on the internet. I am very sure they haven't asked permission, no paid a fee to do so.

I am not making an argument that you need don't need permission. I would hope that a MAIL FB page would be handled with the care the main site does.
I am just wondering how some many mainstream sites can do exactly what you say is not possible?
If I were to start such a FB fan page on my own with no permission what can you do to prevent me from thumb linking anything I want from MAIL?

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Posted on Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:39 pm
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I'm rather neutral about the idea of MAIL having a FB page. I'm not really for it, but I'm not against it either. I just don't really care if there is or is not a FB page for MAIL, and I'm not entirely sure how useful it would be. As Phong said, most people that are online and make maille already know about the site and are either members here or at the very least are lurkers (sometimes both). MAIL was one of the first chainmaille sites I found when I started learning.

When you Google "chainmaille," MAIL is the third site in the results after TRL and a Wikipedia article on chainmaille. Seventh if you Google "chainmail," 1st if you Google "maille," 4th if you Google "mail," and second if you Google "chain maille." So it would if awfully difficult for some that makes chainmaille and uses the internet on a regular bases (and for more than just checking e-mail) to not know about the site.

For some that are members here, or simply lurk, that don't visit the site on a regular basis I can see how a FB page might be useful to them in order to stay up to date regarding what's new without always having to come here.

Between there being a FB Group page or Fan page, I think the Fan page would be the better choice. Then if people want to they can "like" it, but don't have to worry about being inundated with friend-requests they may or may not want as, pretty much, all you can see is how many people have clicked the "like" button and can't browse through the list. Where as, if it is a group and you click "join" you can browse the list of members.

But, as I said before, I'm neither for nor against there being an official FB page for MAIL.



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Posted on Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:57 pm
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Derailed wrote:
What does written permission mean then? My point being that you get such from the author before you post their media. If they don't feel comfortable spreading to FB then you go with a standard link, and generic avatar. I am quite sure some participants here would be happy to agree to allow their pictures to be mirrored on other MAIL controlled media. I for one would not object, and would agree in advance to such a use.

Derailed, I share your enthusiasm for making submitted content more accessible. It's one of the reasons I support making Creative Commons Licensing an option in all submissions. http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=15540
It would be an excellent way of obtaining the proper written permission needed for what you are talking about. But acceptance of CCC Licensing is not universal here. http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=15075
There are other threads pertaining to this subject. Those are just the most recent ones that come to memory.

Derailed wrote:
Just out of curiosity how does Google, every search engine, and millions of other sites do it? Google thumbnails every image on the internet. I am very sure they haven't asked permission, no paid a fee to do so.

I'm not willing to get into a discussion on what Google does or doesn't do, or on how legal or illegal it is. I'm very sure that just because someone else does something, that doesn't make it a good argument for what MAIL should or shouldn't do.

Derailed wrote:
I am not making an argument that you need don't need permission. I would hope that a MAIL FB page would be handled with the care the main site does.

I believe CCC Licensing is a responsible way of handling this.

Derailed wrote:
I am just wondering how some many mainstream sites can do exactly what you say is not possible?

This statement really bothers me. I don't believe I said anything like that. I simply stated what MAIL's current content policy is, and that the Board is bound by that. I don't pretend to know what other "mainstream sites" do, and I did not make any statements claiming that anything was "not possible".

Derailed wrote:
If I were to start such a FB fan page on my own with no permission what can you do to prevent me from thumb linking anything I want from MAIL?

Copyrights belong to the copyright holder and can only be defended by the copyright holder. I'm assuming when you say "... what can you do..." that you mean "... what can MAIL do..." About all MAIL can do is notify the individual copyright holders that their content is being ripped off. It would then be up to each copyright holder to assert their rights, if they choose to. If past occurrences are any indication, you would receive a large number of emails from people requesting that you stop infringing on their copyrights or they will contact the website and have you shut down.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
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Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: June 13, 2009
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Posted on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:48 am
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lorraine wrote:

Derailed, I share your enthusiasm for making submitted content more accessible. It's one of the reasons I support making Creative Commons Licensing an option in all submissions. http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=15540
It would be an excellent way of obtaining the proper written permission needed for what you are talking about. But acceptance of CCC Licensing is not universal here. http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=15075
There are other threads pertaining to this subject. Those are just the most recent ones that come to memory.


That either didn't answer what I meant to ask, or it was way over my head.
What I wanted to know was it possible to ask any individual on this site to use their images(in writing) and receive a response(also in writing) that would not violate MAIL protections, or even make the community itself uncomfortable. This would only apply to archived items as you would need to ask to use the source of the posted images hosted elsewhere.

lorraine wrote:

I'm not willing to get into a discussion on what Google does or doesn't do, or on how legal or illegal it is. I'm very sure that just because someone else does something, that doesn't make it a good argument for what MAIL should or shouldn't do.


Agreed. I did not mean that as a challenge, just more a curiosity.


lorraine wrote:

This statement really bothers me. I don't believe I said anything like that. I simply stated what MAIL's current content policy is, and that the Board is bound by that. I don't pretend to know what other "mainstream sites" do, and I did not make any statements claiming that anything was "not possible".


Again it was a question not a challenge, and more addressed to anyone who could answer it. "Not Possible" was poor wording on my part. You did say "Not Allowed". I was trying to understand if there is not a method that is allowed.

lorraine wrote:
Copyrights belong to the copyright holder and can only be defended by the copyright holder. I'm assuming when you say "... what can you do..." that you mean "... what can MAIL do..." About all MAIL can do is notify the individual copyright holders that their content is being ripped off. It would then be up to each copyright holder to assert their rights, if they choose to. If past occurrences are any indication, you would receive a large number of emails from people requesting that you stop infringing on their copyrights or they will contact the website and have you shut down.


Seems like we are all over thinking this, and my own curiosity is getting in the way of a simple answer.
I would like to know though if MAIL wanted to generate any media beyond what already exists on this site(like maybe a printed flier, calendar, or T-shirt) and they wanted to use a few select images created by the members how, if at all could they do that with the cooperation of the creators?

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Posted on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:52 am
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Derailed wrote:
I would like to know though if MAIL wanted to generate any media beyond what already exists on this site(like maybe a printed flier, calendar, or T-shirt) and they wanted to use a few select images created by the members how, if at all could they do that with the cooperation of the creators?


We have in the past, and continue to o so.
If, and only if, we have the originators permission...

We really don't need content duplication on FB, however... As Narrina said, we're pretty easy to find...
I understand the want for a fan page... Everyone wants to let the world know what they like.



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Posted on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:55 am
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Derailed wrote:
Just out of curiosity how does Google, every search engine, and millions of other sites do it? Google thumbnails every image on the internet. I am very sure they haven't asked permission, no paid a fee to do so.


Search engines use a bit of a loophole called 'fair use'... Their specific raison d'etre being to provide links to other sites, and have no actual 'content' of their own, aside from rankings...
Google itself has gotten into a bit of trouble over the years regarding images, and I suspect this is part of the reason they recently changed their format.

Derailed wrote:
If I were to start such a FB fan page on my own with no permission what can you do to prevent me from thumb linking anything I want from MAIL?


See: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=15357
When prompted something fishy is going on, I watch the server logs, I know who is linking what, where and how. I am also rather adept at Apache Server Manipulation... What you think you're getting might not be what you end up with Smile



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Posted on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:58 am
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Derailed wrote:
I would like to know though if MAIL wanted to generate any media beyond what already exists on this site(like maybe a printed flier, calendar, or T-shirt) and they wanted to use a few select images created by the members how, if at all could they do that with the cooperation of the creators?


We have in the past, and continue to o so.
If, and only if, we have the originators permission...

We really don't need content duplication on FB, however... As Narrina said, we're pretty easy to find...
I understand the want for a fan page... Everyone wants to let the world know what they like.


So the end result is there is a way to do it if you wanted to, but you don't.
Hey that's cool. I was more interested as it hadn't been brought up before.
I get so much more interested when it seems that the task is considered impossible, or challenging, then I do if it just holds no appeal.
I kinda hate FB myself, but feel forced at time to use it as it does generate business.

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Posted on Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:03 am
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:

Search engines use a bit of a loophole called 'fair use'... Their specific raison d'etre being to provide links to other sites, and have no actual 'content' of their own, aside from rankings...
Google itself has gotten into a bit of trouble over the years regarding images, and I suspect this is part of the reason they recently changed their format.

See: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=15357
When prompted something fishy is going on, I watch the server logs, I know who is linking what, where and how. I am also rather adept at Apache Server Manipulation... What you think you're getting might not be what you end up with Smile


AH thanks for the info. FB works a lot on the same wavelength unless you decide to host media in their albums. SO a FB fan page could have thumbed links to anything on the MAIL site, and yet be under the "fair use" loophole.
No I am not fishing for a way to set up my own FB leech of MAIL. Very Happy

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Posted on Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:05 am
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Derailed wrote:
AH thanks for the info. FB works a lot on the same wavelength unless you decide to host media in their albums. SO a FB fan page could have thumbed links to anything on the MAIL site, and yet be under the "fair use" loophole.


No, it wouldn't.

Facebook is a Social Networking site, not a search engine... You don't go to Facebook to find content... Fair use wouldn't apply.
Facebook also doesn't pay any attention to 'robots.txt' and thus cannot be told NOT to index a directory for images... In all occurances, hotlinking on Facebook without permission.
Not OK.



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Posted on Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:05 pm
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I know I said earlier that I would discuss this, but I seem to have lost all interest in the topic (that, and I'm fairly ignorant as to what is all required for such an undertaking). Those who are discussing, though, have brought up all the points that I might have otherwise mentioned, so I'll just step back from this one. There is one thing that I do find interesting, though:
Derailed wrote:
I kinda hate FB myself, but feel forced at time to use it as it does generate business.

You are arguing so diligently for use of FB, but you don't even like the service. How odd.

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Posted on Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:58 pm
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Vorondil wrote:
I know I said earlier that I would discuss this, but I seem to have lost all interest in the topic (that, and I'm fairly ignorant as to what is all required for such an undertaking). Those who are discussing, though, have brought up all the points that I might have otherwise mentioned, so I'll just step back from this one. There is one thing that I do find interesting, though:
Derailed wrote:
I kinda hate FB myself, but feel forced at time to use it as it does generate business.

You are arguing so diligently for use of FB, but you don't even like the service. How odd.


Not odd for me. Call it a character flaw. I tend to take a side in a lot of conversations I have no vested interest in simply because I learn something from the exercise. I learned a lot from the mods, and members who added to this discussion that I likely would not have learned just reading the dry copyright literature. I also learned more about the moderators themselves. I often find I get to like people the more I learn about them, how they see things, and their motivations.
Not liking FB has a little to do with what one will do to promote something.

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Posted on Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:47 pm
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Lotos, we *could* put one of those "like" buttons on our pages. Then anyone who clicked would be posting us on their FB page, and generate more linkage....


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

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