Half Persian Quoi?
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
   
Author Message

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3058
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Half Persian Quoi?
Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:01 am || Last edited by Daemon_Lotos on Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Link to Post: Link to Post

Alright, so I took a break from coding for a bit, and decided to play around with weaves...

I was thinking about making a Half Persian Sheet Belt for the Gallery Contest, but I wanted to come up with something fairly unique...

I hunted through the gallery, stopped Half Persian 6 in 1, and decided that would be my base... I figured I'd try it with 20g AWG 1/4" rings... (Springback taken into consideration, that's a little over an AR of Uber

I started weaving away... Using my knowledge of HP4 as a base, heading towards what I think should be HP6...

What I came up with confused me...

First of all, I had to remove the first half dozen rings or so, since I'd started it all bass-akward... But once I got into it, it's simple as punch...

However:

1. It doesn't lie flat... HP3 and HP5 have a triangular cross-section... I was under the impression that HP6 should be similar to HP4, and should lie flat... This is not the case.
2. I think AR 8.5 is almost a practical minimum for this weave... The Ideal AR of 8 in the Library sure isn't accurate... I'd gun for 9 at least if I were to try this again, it certainly isn't expandable into a sheet form.
3. Given the cross-section and the fact the AR is astoundingly not what math says it should be... It's possible this isn't HP6... Since there's no tutorials, and the pic in the weave library isn't the greatest...

So, I ask those that are better with weave theory and ring interaction than I to judge for yourselves...

HP6?

The 'Front'


The 'Back'


Neither of these show the ring path exceptionally well, but apparently my NiMH's are on the way out, I got two shots off before they bit the dust... I'll put some shorts of the sides up tomorrow...



Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 7093
Submissions: 337
Location: UK

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:17 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

I know I have made a small bit of this in the past and I'm pretty sure it was flat like HP4in1. However I can't find the piece so I'll guess I'll have to make some more. Back soon.


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 7093
Submissions: 337
Location: UK

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:32 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

OK I have made some HP6in1 as I did before and it is flat on both sides (pics below), I used rings with an AR of 8.8.




So I tried out a 7in1 same rings AR 8.8, this was a bit tight so an AR of 9 would fit and it has the same kind of triangular cross section that you would expect.




So maybe you have made 7in1, that's my best guess. I do think yours looks a little different to mine so there's a possibility that you've come up with a completely different 6in1??? Hard to tell without the piece in front of me but stranger things have happened.


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4610
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:52 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Here's mine DL.
http://mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=14956


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3058
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:02 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

*goes crosseyed from following ring paths in JPG images on his laptop*

I'm seriously confused now... Confused

I'm thinking my rings are just on the absolute low end of the 'weaveable' scale... And the weave is 'bunching' up into a triangular cross-section...

Which is odd, because these rings should have an AR of 8.5...
Yet lorraine managed it with 18g AWG 8.00mm... AR: 7.8...

Seriously... It shouldn't be bunching like this...



Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 7093
Submissions: 337
Location: UK

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:13 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

No it shouldn't. I really think you have 7in1 there (or a new 6in1 is possible).


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: February 15, 2002
Posts: 385
Submissions: 10

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:17 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

For an even HP6, a ring should come up through 3 rings, pass the centerline of the chain, and then go down through 3 more rings.

Looking at the "Back" picture, and starting with one of the rings on the bottom, travel counter-clockwise along the ring. It appears that it is only going through 2 of the top row of rings. I can't tell what's happening after that.

I once made an HP5-1 (1,4) instead of the standard (2,3), and it turned into a tight spiral, so I don't think that you did that. When the chain was held by one end, it had a tight enough grip that the pen would not drop.



IGP (Irregular Grid Painter) Links:
Home | FAQ | Downloads

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3058
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:55 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Zlosk wrote:
For an even HP6, a ring should come up through 3 rings, pass the centerline of the chain, and then go down through 3 more rings.

Looking at the "Back" picture, and starting with one of the rings on the bottom, travel counter-clockwise along the ring. It appears that it is only going through 2 of the top row of rings. I can't tell what's happening after that.


BINGO

Without having it in front of me (I'm currently at work) but recalling my weaving last night...
It goes (using your terms) up 4 rings, down 2... (Or up 2 down 4, depending on the handedness we're discussing in 'theoretical' mailling)
This is what I get for 'thinking' HP4 while attempting to work HP6...

The 'tight spiral' would come into play, I think, if the AR of these rings were any smaller... This wants to spiral around my thumb every time I pick it up.
Probably less tight because it's a 'balanced' Half Persian to start with... And I only put it slightly off, rather than 'seriously' off, as you would do by shifting HP5 to a 1:4 weave...

So the question then becomes, what is it?

Legba3 wrote:
No it shouldn't. I really think you have 7in1 there (or a new 6in1 is possible).


I'm thinking so...
Unbalanced Half Persian 6 in 1 (4:2)... Or something to that effect...

Balls... I really didn't set out to confuse myself like this... But on the flipside, now I know where I went wrong.



Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4610
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:06 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I know when I posted a pic of HP 5-1, Phong pointed out that I was going up2, down3. But that you can do it in other combinations as well. And that some of the even variations will be asymmetrical.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3058
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:15 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

lorraine wrote:
And that some of the even variations will be asymmetrical.


Yeah, he just popped online in the MAIL Chat, so he and I had a chat about it...

I'm surprised it's not in the Weave DB yet... None of the unbalanced HP's are...



Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3058
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Half Persian 6 in 1 Unbalanced (4:2)
Reply with quote
Posted on Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:47 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Alright,

After going home and playing with it again last night (including adding a few more rings, and taking some better pics, including one of the splayed end... Which I doodled on, so there's a pic below of the ring interation! Very Happy)

I can tell you:
a) It is Half Persian 6 in 1
b) It is NOT 'True' Half Persian 6 in 1
c) It IS 'Half Persian 6 in 1 Unbalanced (4:2)'
d) I need a new camera, as the colour balance on my significant others camera is MUCH whiter than mine.

Pics below.

Front (again):


Back (again)... Sorry about the focus.:


Ring Interaction:

Red ring indicates the 'open' ring being added to layer 1 of the weave. Yellow indicates the closed ring being added to layer 2.

The path is up through 4 of the 5 previous rings from layer 2 (blue) down through the new ring (yellow) and then down through the final ring in layer 2 (green).

TADA!
I'm an idiot Coif LoL



Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4610
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

Re: Half Persian 6 in 1 Unbalanced (4:2)
Reply with quote
Posted on Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:36 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
TADA!
I'm an idiot Coif LoL

Yes, yes you are. Congratulations on your new discovery!
Oh, and contratulations on your new weave too. Razz


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: September 26, 2009
Posts: 500
Submissions: 0
Location: Meridies

Reply with quote
Posted on Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:47 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I wonder if you can make a sheet out of this....You can with HP3-1, because it's got that trapazoid shape. Or at least that's how I think of it--the trapazoid small-side-up and the trapazoid small-side-down can share a leg (ie, the links). With HP4-1, sharing a leg doesn't work--it's a rectangle. This weave has trapazoids, which means you CAN share legs.

It'd be a pain in the rear, and you'd probably go blind and/or insane doing it, but it'd be fun to try. Coif LoL

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3058
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:02 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Dinwar wrote:
I wonder if you can make a sheet out of this....You can with HP3-1, because it's got that trapazoid shape. Or at least that's how I think of it--the trapazoid small-side-up and the trapazoid small-side-down can share a leg (ie, the links). With HP4-1, sharing a leg doesn't work--it's a rectangle. This weave has trapazoids, which means you CAN share legs.

It'd be a pain in the rear, and you'd probably go blind and/or insane doing it, but it'd be fun to try. Coif LoL


You can sheet HP4, there's a few options in the Library... The 'true' sheet being: http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=360
Though at some point, Phong ballsed up, and made: http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=894 instead. Coif LoL

But you're right, sheeting HP3 is a damn sight easier, and looks a lot nicer.
You could probably sheet this, though I'd need larger rings to do so...
There's actually, probably, quite a chunk of sheeting options... Depending on how many rings from each row you crossed, etc... The mind boggles.

I'll look into it when I have a bit of free time to coil and cut some more rings this weekend... I imagine 20g on a 5/16" mandrel would be PLENTY big enough to sheet with... (Unfortunately, though I have a great mandrel selection in micro sizes... My large mandrels jump from 1/4" to 5/16" to 3/8")
After all, blind and insane are on my resume Wink

On the flipside, w00t new 'true' Persian weave... I've always loved the Persian Family.



Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:20 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

hp 2+4 = unbalanced hp6.

there is also a hp 1+5 unbalanced hp6..

hp3 is hp1+2. the numbers on either side of the + are unequal, so it has a triangular cross section

hp4 is hp2+2 has equal numbers on either side of the + and is flat. (X shaped cross section)

hp3+3 is a balanced hp6.

i sort of lined this out years ago.. :/
it has been around as long as MAIL has..
it is kind of obscure so i don't blame you for not knowing it.
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=126
http://www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/weavedisplay.php?key=127

i never submitted that particular combination, but i established the theory.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 1 of 2. Goto page 1, 2  Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:08 pm
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
Display posts from previous: