Watermarking
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Would you like to see images on MAIL Watermarked "The Image (c) UserName"?
Yes
80%
 80%  [ 24 ]
No
3%
 3%  [ 1 ]
Undecided
13%
 13%  [ 4 ]
Other (Please leave comment below.)
3%
 3%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 30

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Watermarking
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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:19 am || Last edited by Daemon_Lotos on Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Alright, now ImageMagick is back online... It is time for me to ask an important question...

Here at MAIL, we've had a few cases in the past years of people stealing images, text, and what-have-you...

How do people feel about a watermark script, being used to display the images, instead of directly linking them.

Basically, the script could generate a custom watermark on the fly, when an image was viewed, by it in a weave page, a fullsize image, in an article, or a gallery item.

The watermark, would say something to the effect of "This image (c) UserName of mailleartisans.org" (Where UserName would be the username of the submitting member) and be almost invisible and thus unobtrusive on the main MAIL site, but there nontheless, to make it easier to call someone on having downloaded an image from MAIL and then used it on their site.


Questions, comments, concerns, all welcome and encouraged.

Disclaimer: The poll is in no way an official vote, just an attempt to see how people feel about the possibility of considering the chance of maybe implimenting something similar to the watermark Coif LoL


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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:00 am
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In principle it sounds like a good idea to me.

How does the script work? Does it generate a new temporary image with the watermark in it or just overlay the water mark as a separate image? Just curious wrt to people saving the images and rehosting.

Also, where in the image would the watermark appear? Too close to the edge and it could be cropped out. Over the middle and even with low opacity it could obscure the image somewhat depending on composition.

Any chance of seeing a sample or two?

Dave

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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:10 am
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ManowarDave wrote:
How does the script work? Does it generate a new temporary image with the watermark in it or just overlay the water mark as a separate image? Just curious wrt to people saving the images and rehosting.


In technical terms, the image would be generated in a similar fashion to the way Email Addresses are now generated.
(Go to my Profile, and right click on the image that appears as my email address, and click properties. You'll see that the image URL is: http://www.mailleartisans.org/members/member_email.php?key=11002)
To elabourate:
A script is written that generates a temporary 'image' in PHP Memory.
This image (in the case of watermarking) would be a combination of the Weave Image (Original, Unmodified) and a 'text' watermark.
This script would be accessed through a standard <img src="scriptname.php?key=weaveid"> HTML Tag.
This 'masks' the original image, preventing it from being downloaded without the watermark, the downloaded version would be the temporary PHP created image.
Clear as mud, I hope Coif LoL

ManowarDave wrote:
Also, where in the image would the watermark appear? Too close to the edge and it could be cropped out. Over the middle and even with low opacity it could obscure the image somewhat depending on composition.


You're right, on both counts of course... Practice would make perfect, naturally... Likely something semi-central, with a serious bend towards the transparent...

ManowarDave wrote:
Any chance of seeing a sample or two?


Right now this is just a conceptal idea I'm tossing around in my head, if it seems like something that the membership might like to see, I'd be more than willing to toss an example script together.


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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:28 pm
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I think this is a great idea and should be applied to all images including those in the weaves library and articles library.


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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:05 pm
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gallery and articles, definitely.

i don't mind weaves, so long as it is made clear that it is the -image- and not the -ring interaction- that is protected.

i would still like to be able to access non-watermarked images when viewing my MyMAIL page. sometimes i grab one of those images to use as an avatar somewhere else when i'm not in a place that i have them stored locally.

as unobtrusive as possible.


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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:37 pm
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I like the idea of securing the images this way. I think that having it on all the images on MAIL, gallery, weaves, articles, would be a good idea. I like the idea of being able to access you personal MyMAIL account to get non-watermarked images that you have put up yourself.

One question would be: Will this increase our memory load to much as the site grows?


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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:15 pm
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sakredchao wrote:
i don't mind weaves, so long as it is made clear that it is the -image- and not the -ring interaction- that is protected.


Naturally.

sakredchao wrote:
i would still like to be able to access non-watermarked images when viewing my MyMAIL page. sometimes i grab one of those images to use as an avatar somewhere else when i'm not in a place that i have them stored locally.


Sheer genius!


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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:33 pm
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Alright so... Here's a thought...

What about Watermarked image for 'Guests' and Logged in New Users...

But once a user has passed a certain amount of posts/submissions/time with the site/had a magic 'Can see non-watermarked images' box checked on their profile by an admin... They are shown non-watermarked images instead? Since we're all very unlikely to steal from our own.

Discuss!


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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:47 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
... once a user has passed a certain amount of posts/submissions/time with the site/had a magic 'Can see non-watermarked images' box checked on their profile by an admin... They are shown non-watermarked images instead? Since we're all very unlikely to steal from our own.


It sounds like more work for the administration to do unless it is automatically.

One thought is that access be regulated by number of posts, or have a feature that allows people who "own" the picture can be requested to be sent a non-watermarked photo from their MyMAIL account. For example if I wanted one of DL's pictures I would PM him and he could send a copy of it from his MyMAIL account. This could help people monitor what people like of their work. Those memberse who are not active, but still have pictures on the site their pictures can be accessed by members that have reached "Senior Kibitzer" statice can access pictures of people who have not been around for "X" long.

Just some thoughts, but I don't think I stated it very well because I am in amongst family now and it is only half thought out.


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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:47 pm
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What about already existing content that the content owners maybe disagree with being shown in an altered manner? I am undecided. Remember that a copyright is valid also without explicit remark. So for me a visible copyright remark on every displayed MAIL page's bottom imho suffices to tell that this is a copyright-aware site, and MAIL is willing to protect it's users' intellectual property. And: Who steals content, usually cannot be hindered really effective, anyway - only in the aftermath. So e.g. a deep-link protection as already practiced proved being very effective. Auto-watermarking (even a selective one) is imho a little bit too much. But feel free to convince me to begin thinking otherwise.

-ZiLi-


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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:02 pm
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There are those who can get around the watermark, true. However, there are also those who may try using pictures without knowing that they are copyright. Sure, there is the copyright notice on the bottom of the page, but many people ignore it. If we used the watermark, when someone tried to use the picture on their own site, it would be quite visible to all of their visitors. That would be enough of a deterrent in many cases. Just because some people could get around the watermark to steal images does not mean, IMHO, that we should not try to deter anyone else from doing so.

ZiLi wrote:
What about already existing content that the content owners maybe disagree with being shown in an altered manner?

So long as we adopt the idea of having unedited images accessible in the My M.A.I.L. page, I do not see why anyone would have cause to complain. The images themselves are not being altered, just presented in a slightly different format.

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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:24 pm
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Quote:
"without knowing they are copyright"

That seems ridiculous for me. Contents are only free if marked as being such, not the other way around. That IS common knowledge. Who tells not having known about after got caught, is simply a liar searching for an escape. And anyway: lacking knowledge doesn't protect against punishment. Who doesn't know, is obligued to get knowledge before using non-original property.

I do NOT need to be notified that coffee is hot, or that I shall not dry living animals in my microwave oven. Putting copyright notification watermarks on images is nothing dissimilar in my opinion. Who thinks to need them on her/his own images may add them her/himself (or maybe tick a checkbox on submission if (s)he wishes so and it's technically feasible). I prefer to forego such markings.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper Mfe.s Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Pj Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hi

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

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Location: Cambridge, ON, Canada

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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:31 pm
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ZiLi wrote:
I do NOT need to be notified that coffee is hot


In the US, you seem to...
Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants

But I digress...

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but there have been many cases where ignorance of circumstances, or methods have been used as acceptable 'get out of jail free' cards.

Example:
User A comes to MAIL, and downloads 2 dozen weave images.
User A uploads those images to his site, leaving a disclaimer at the bottom of his page saying they're free for the taking.
User A doesn't have the right to do either, but does anyway, because this is the internet, and he thinks nobody will catch him.
User B visits User A's page, sees that the images are free to download, and does so. Then uploads them on his own page.

Has User B commited a crime? Would User B have been prevented from doing so by a 'Copyright Notice' at the bottom of MAIL's site? Would User B have thought twice about this if the images he downloaded had been watermarked?


God I love playing devil's advocate.


I should note, at this point, that I have not voted. Nor do I intend to. I support neither side of this argument, I am merely presenting an option to the membership, and searching for feedback.


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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:33 pm
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ZiLi wrote:
Contents are only free if marked as being such, not the other way around. That IS common knowledge. Who tells not having known about after got caught, is simply a liar searching


ZiLi I will admit that I never thought about this fact and there was never anybody that taught this to us. I only became aware of the fact after the issue came up here. I will admit that I never did anything that the topic would have come up, but the fact is I was never aware of the fact.


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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:51 pm
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Well I like to play a bit advocatus diaboli myself (I cast the one 'undecided' vote), as I don't like to say 'yes' to anything, before having thought about consequences, before. And for example I find ridiculous, how many people literally 'dump' parts of their personal freedom to get a bit (often imaginary) safety.

Tha 'A-B-C' chain of copyright violation could maybe hindered a bit to happen by watermarking, but what's the normal action when such happens with unmarked images (or ones that got the copyright remarks cropped/pixelpissed out)? MAIL (A) notifies the one who uses the content in good faith (C) that the content is not free if A gets aware of the violation. C either discloses the facts about B (the original violator) being the source, and B's disclaimer the contents were free, and removes the contents (or tries to acquire the right to continue the use to become a lawful user), or denies that and so becomes a violator then, as having knowledge about the valid copyright claims now - and can be dealt with.

So, where's the problem?

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper Mfe.s Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Pj Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hi

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

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