My Turk's Heads
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Joined: December 19, 2003
Posts: 72
Submissions: 28
Location: Romania

My Turk's Heads
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Posted on Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:34 pm
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I've known about Loren and his creations for a few years now - learned about him from some post here.

Seeing as how there are low chances of him ever coming to Romania, I ordered his DVDs and some kits and got cracking.

Below you can see my first attempt, made from the copper wire which Loren included with the kits... which was actually the second attempt as on the first ring I made a mistake on the pattern and abandoned it.







Yes, the strands are uneven. The wire is badly beat up in places. But I'm rather happy with how it came out, considering it was the first ever completed.

After this, I turned to silver. Below you can see a series of pictures containing 3 rings.

The one on the left is the first ever done in silver. It's made of 800 silver wire (0.8mm thickness) and turned out pretty well. Lots of progress from the copper one. What is interesting about it is this: When I finished it, it looked similarly to the copper one, although the wire wasn't as beat up. I then annealed it and went at it with chopsticks and managed to get it to look pretty decent. The darker color of it is due to the 800 silver alloy and due to it being worn day in and day out for the last 2 months.





The one on the right is another step up. Three strands, made out of sterling silver. Turned out pretty bad - uneven bights, the whole thing looks sort of tilted (higher on one top and on the diagonally opposing top, if that makes sense - especially visible in the below shot, if you look closely). I tried to anneal it and "fix" it, to no avail. It could be worn and it would look decently, but if you look at it off the finger, the defects are glaring - for me at least. I did learn a lot while making it - especially that 925 is much easier to work with than 800 (which work hardens like a bastard).



The middle ring is the last one made. Similar to the rightmost one, but made of fine silver instead. The difference in easiness of working and speed of work hardening between 925 and 999 is colossal, let alone between 800 and 999. This one came out really, really well; the bights have some height difference between them, but it's barely noticeable. The strands aren't properly aligned in all places, but it's nothing glaring.
Also, the fine silver is really, really shiny. The pictures really don't do it justice.

Here's a shot of the first ring (800) and the third one (999) on my finger for refference.



Another shot - left one is 999, right one is 925. In this one you can really see the defects mentioned on the 925 one.



Lastly, a couple of shots of the 999 ring on its own. Again, it looks better in real life as it's shinier and stuff Razz





I have plans to carry on and try twisted wire, mixed strands, etc.
Any feedback, thoughts and comments are more than welcome.


... adding ring upon ring, upon ring...

Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 272
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Location: Lorain Oh

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Posted on Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:05 pm
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one thing i would recommend is getting a ring stretcher of some kind.

http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/ProductPage.aspx?assetname=116030&page=GRID&free_text|1279310073401=ring+stretcher

by making the ring smaller and stretching it to the desired size will even out most of the flaws in the ring. it will also give you more flexibility in sizing your rings. i often find myself unhappy with the finished ring when i go for the more open weave as opposed the tighter weave you get when stretching.

in a few of your pictures where the ends of the wire are there are four strands in a section. im not sure if this was intentional or not. i simply tuck both ends of the wire under the same section of the ring.

Joined: December 19, 2003
Posts: 72
Submissions: 28
Location: Romania

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Posted on Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:30 pm
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Fuqua wrote:
one thing i would recommend is getting a ring stretcher of some kind.

http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/ProductPage.aspx?assetname=116030&page=GRID&free_text|1279310073401=ring+stretcher

by making the ring smaller and stretching it to the desired size will even out most of the flaws in the ring. it will also give you more flexibility in sizing your rings. i often find myself unhappy with the finished ring when i go for the more open weave as opposed the tighter weave you get when stretching.

in a few of your pictures where the ends of the wire are there are four strands in a section. im not sure if this was intentional or not. i simply tuck both ends of the wire under the same section of the ring.


A ring stretcher is on my list of stuff to buy, Been using pool cues so far.

About the ends - that's the way I was "taught" to do by Loren through his DVDs and that's the way I do it. Very Happy
I can provide you with a picture of the inside if you want. But I like it this way - the strand runs along the other ones for a bit and doesn't stand out at all, it just seems natural. How do you tuck yours?


... adding ring upon ring, upon ring...

Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 272
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Location: Lorain Oh

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Posted on Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:36 pm
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i tuck both ends of the wire under the same spot in the ring as not to cause a section with four strands.

i also use a pool cue while making the ring and one thing i have learned that if i am stretching the ring on that to be careful how i hold it. normally i grab it with my thumb and index finger and slide it up the cue. before it gets fully stretched that way rotate the ring and continue stretching it. this method helps to control the high and low spots in the finished ring.

BTW i have taken Lorens class in person.

Joined: March 19, 2004
Posts: 73
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Posted on Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:25 am
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Gah... tried to post a representation of what I wanted to show you, but the text kept reformatting and screwing it up.

I don't pass through the gap on the outside with an extra strand, I cut them off inside with just barely enough length to overlap past each other at the strand where they meet.

In a tripled ring you'll see three strands coming in, and three strands coming out, but only two of them will be the same ones.

Here's a picture that doesn't quite match that, but still gives the idea, I think:



In this case I have two separate pieces of wire, one of which is "doubled" through the ring, the twisted wire going between the two passes. Only one strand carries through the gap, the others end in such a way as to hide from the outside. The picture, by the way, is of the _inside_ of the ring.

Hope this helps.

Loren
http://www.golden-knots.com/

Joined: December 19, 2003
Posts: 72
Submissions: 28
Location: Romania

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Posted on Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:38 am
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Thanks for the feedback and the advice, Fuqua and Loren.

Loren, you are correct, I actually didn't follow your instructions regarding the ends.
Do you think it looks bad if there are 4 strands visible in a single place or is it simply a matter of prefference?


... adding ring upon ring, upon ring...

Joined: March 27, 2009
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Location: Southeastern Minnesota

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Posted on Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:40 pm
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Fenrir wrote:
Do you think it looks bad if there are 4 strands visible in a single place or is it simply a matter of prefference?

As a lay person myself (at least as it pertains to these rings), I never noticed the four strands until I specifically looked for them after you asked this question. If you can manage it so that it looks like there is three strands throughout, that will help upon careful inspection. But otherwise, I don't see a big problem with it.

Joined: March 19, 2004
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Posted on Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:08 pm
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Fenrir,

It's purely a matter of preference. I had one student who doubled her ring in the workshop, then decided to triple it, then stopped after two turns. That meant there were two paths of three and three paths of two. She was happy with it, and it looked rather cool.

Loren
http://www.golden-knots.com/

Joined: February 24, 2010
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Posted on Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:10 am
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I just made another ring today (yay, first 3 strand 7 lead (and 8 bight, but i've made 5 and 3 leads with 8 bight before) and out of silver Very Happy)

and the area that's 4 wires wide is an entire straight of it (idk what it'd be called. it's just from one bight to the next, ok? XD)

at the ends, I took the 2 wire tails, bent them about half way under the pass above them (well, maybe the "entire straight" was incorrect, but for a section of under, over, under, over, under), and then tucked the end of the wire (trimmed to about... eh... 1.5 mm long, from the bend to tip) under the pass above it, but so that it was locked into a ridge between 2 of the wires of said pass. Thus, if i eventually get to soldering, it's quite easy to ask for the ring back, solder it, and return it. (it's a birthday gift)

though the wire did break in the middle of it... lol... i managed to continue regardless. I'd solder this too if I ever got to soldering... actually, as I think of it and examine it, no i wouldnt... I cant find that point XD (it happened because I was going a bit too fast in one point and accidentally grabbed my round nose pliers instead of my chain nose, when pulling the wire through, and it indented the wire enough to weaken it, eventually snapping as I was pulling taught that section of the wire as it was tied in.)

also, Loren. as you only have platinum and gold prices listed, how much would you sell a 7L* 8B 3 strand made in fine silver? (it's a size 6. it looks like the diamonds are only 2 wire thicknesses in length and width, so it's a rather dense ring. (i'm guessing if it were drawn flat on paper (as if it were a braid, and not a turk's head), and the silver shaded in, the shaded area would be 60% of it) I used 0.025" btw, and i'm calculating it at $3.50 base material cost. though as a gift, i'm not selling it, lol.)



oh, and as I was typing this, I finally found the point where it has broken, and still stand that I wouldnt solder it, as it looks streamline unless you hold it close to a light and tilt it back and forth a few dozen times, as it reflects slightly differently in one part of it. XD

Joined: March 19, 2004
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Posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:27 pm
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Saradamon,

You're grabbing the wire with pliers? Ouch. I'd avoid that, if I were you.

Congrats on doing a seven-lead ring, that's definitely not a trivial accomplishment.

Price for a silver ring? Depends on whether I have to go through all the planning and fiddling stages. If I do a custom ring for someone, I charge more than I would if I just happen to have one that they find acceptable. I'd do a custom 5x9 for someone for three hundred, a custom 7x9 for four hundred, but an "in stock" ring could go from a hundred to a hundred and fifty.

Loren
http://www.golden-knots.com/

Joined: February 24, 2010
Posts: 551
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Posted on Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:39 am
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well, i grab the end of the wire usually, but it was early and I wasn't thinking too clearly, so i grabbed the middle of the wire instead XD

what would you define as "planning and fiddling stages"? I had string that was about 3x as thick as the wire (thus about as thick as 3 strands of the wire, of course) so i tied it on the ring rig before using the silver to both make sure it would fit, and to tell how much wire I needed. and it just barely worked, though still working, so I went on to silver, making sure to use a longer piece of wire than I expected to need, still, just in case Wink (i'm running out of the dead soft fine silver, so i wouldnt, actually, have had enough left over if i cut it too short)

my pics are still rather horrid in most cases, but this was the best of the 3 semi-decent ones XD (more can be seen on my Tumblr page, if you wish to see them.)



my hardest part isnt the bight or lead count, it's finishing off the ring. (i got the wire ends fine, but i mean straightening out what needs to be, and keeping the ends from folding over when it's being re-sized (as I only have a 7/16" (which is far too small, btw XD. maybe I could make rings for small children, or make them wide on this and them re-size them to make thinner rings more easily, but it's nor preferable), a 5/8" and a 3/4" wooden dowels for ring rigs.)

in the darker of the 3 pics on my Tumblr page, you can probably see a few scratches on some of the bights. those are a lot more noticeable in the light from the flash than they are in normal observation. I was also probably a bit too forceful in trying to re-size it, lol. but at the largest I could get it to go (better stated as "the largest I could get it before stopping in fear that I might damage it") ended up being (or at least feeling, to her) the same size as the ring she normally wore on the finger she now wears it on.

Joined: December 19, 2003
Posts: 72
Submissions: 28
Location: Romania

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Posted on Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:39 pm || Last edited by Fenrir on Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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@Saradamon: Congratulations on your seven lead ring - gonna try those out soon.

@Loren (and everyone else, feel free): When I tie a 5L9B ring, I do like this (as taught by Loren). Pick any bight as a starter. I go on the outside of that bight with the wire. The wire then goes across to the other row of pegs and goes around on the outside of the peg that's two and a half "peg distances" (if that makes any sense) and so on.
Now, the question is about increasing the number of leads.
If I were to do a 7 lead, should I go 3 and a half "peg distances"? What about 3 leads? Well, can someone enlighten me on the relationship between "peg distances" and number of leads?
I've tied a few knots so far in wire (not a lot, mind you, just the ones in this thread) and I've figured out how a 5L9B works; and by "figured out" I mean just the way the wire should go, making them pretty is a whole different ball game. Smile
But I can't for the life of me figure out how to increase the number of leads.

@Everyone: Do you know where I could buy a ring stretcher? Fuqua mentioned this one: http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/ProductPage.aspx?assetname=116030&page=GRID&free_text|;1279310073401=ring+stretcher but that one is tapered.
What I'm looking for is something like this, which is smooth and conical:

Also, an EU seller is preferable to one in the US or Canada since shipping is cheaper and I don't need to pay taxes.
Loren did ask me when I ordered the DVDs and kits from him if I need a ring stretcher, but I thought I had access to one. Proves it's tapered as well; even more, it's not round, but hexagonal. Crying (very sad)

Edit: Removed picture taken off Loren's DVD since I found a better one.


... adding ring upon ring, upon ring...

Joined: February 24, 2010
Posts: 551
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Posted on Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:24 pm
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it looks as if you managed to snap the picture right as it was transitioning to the next frame XD (note the motion blur)

and thanks for the congratulations. i'm actually considering, if the sample (not to be sold) i'm making now works out (as it's not in a dead soft material... 1/2 hard temper etched aluminum, actually. got 2 strands done sofar.), that I might try a 9 lead Razz

cause I love making things complicated Razz

Joined: August 25, 2006
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Posted on Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:06 pm
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want pics of the 9 lead if u get it made.

Joined: February 24, 2010
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Posted on Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:40 am
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bah, the aluminum snapped on the 8th pass. which i guess is sorta a good thing, because I now have an excuse to make it in steel Razz

yea, i said steel Razz

i already made a 2 strand 7l x 8b ring today (only 2 strand because I cut the wire too short. I'd started it before making the silver one or the string one, so it was a poor estimate.), which i rather like, and i've tied other knots in steel, so i know it's up to it...

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