Making scales
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Knitting Circle
   
Author Message

Joined: July 21, 2009
Posts: 59
Submissions: 7
Location: Dresden, Germany

Making scales
Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:44 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

hi,
i'm not really new here, usin the tuts and relating weaves from what i can see on the photos.
But after finishin sum scale-bikini, based on the one Marubaii made, i wondered, if it was possible to make sum corset out of scales, i decided to make it from big aluminium scales, preferably black, and spring rings. I get the spring rings from my (saddlemaker-)boss and could get the scales from my german seller, but this stuff is f***in expensive, so does anyone know how to produce scales by himself or any other cheaper way to attain them?


(big aluminium scales, combined with aluminium/brass-rings; weaves: mostly flower-chains, starfish-base at front, starfish-base based triangle in the back, aura-chain in the back, small gum strip added in the neck-part for more comfort)

Split this off from introduction thread. You should get more answers here. - Lorraine

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3074
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:05 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Hey there!

Having worked a fair bit with scales my self, I can say you're right, they're pricey.
Probably cheaper for me from The Ring Lord, than for you... I assume you're buying TRL scales from The Queen Ring...

I'm not sure they provide the strength or support required for a corset...

I've often contemplated a joint-project with my significant other (she designs and stitches custom corsets) but were I to do anything with scales, I would have her do a basic canvas corset, and then stitch them to it, rather than use the scales to provide the support...

Consider seeing how much cheaper scales are from http://www.theringlord.com and contact Bernice for a shipping quote.



Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 7098
Submissions: 337
Location: UK

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:38 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I've never tried to make scales but I would guess that you need to talk to a machinist, I suspect they will expensive regardless though.
Very nice bikini top, love the draping chains at the back.


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: July 21, 2009
Posts: 59
Submissions: 7
Location: Dresden, Germany

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:18 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Hey there!

Having worked a fair bit with scales my self, I can say you're right, they're pricey.
Probably cheaper for me from The Ring Lord, than for you... I assume you're buying TRL scales from The Queen Ring...

I'm not sure they provide the strength or support required for a corset...

I've often contemplated a joint-project with my significant other (she designs and stitches custom corsets) but were I to do anything with scales, I would have her do a basic canvas corset, and then stitch them to it, rather than use the scales to provide the support...

Consider seeing how much cheaper scales are from http://www.theringlord.com and contact Bernice for a shipping quote.


ummmm, well....
- maybe one should know more bout me: if been doin sum stages in taylorship with a total of bout 1 1/2 years in the last 4 years, meanwhile i've passed a seminar for makin a corsage. Sum of my works can be seen e.g. at this german goth-site: http://www.schwarzer-markt.net/index.php/topic,9429.msg196439.htm

- i know that just a corset consisting of mail might hurt, so i'd use kinda canvas fabric as lining anyways, but i doubt that the mail cracks up if i use spring rings; doubled as they are, they won't be easy to be spoilt, but elastic enough to resist the mechanical forces of tension.
When doin a normal corsage you cut the lining and the fabric and wrap the fabric tightly around the lining before sewing it that way the fabric is kept strained without crinkling while being worn.
A scale-fabric should be a real weave, so the forces are split up and in normal case, the rings are the soft spot cos they're tending to be bent up, but spring rings are rings whose ends are crossed so they should be more massive without losing flexibility in my belief.

- i guess you're rite bout "Queen ring", he's also selling pliers in the same colour, though different photo and it costs double the amount of TRL's price, same is with the scales: 70€/1000pcs (currency rate is bout 1€=1,23$ now).
Anyways, i already let sum friend who works as CNC machinist ask his foremen, if they could produce it cheaper (though w/out the bending in the middle), but i thought maybe you guys get your scales from sumwhere else than TRL, sumwhere cheaper, similar to sumwhat i can find here, too.


@Legba3: thanx for the compliment.

Joined: December 19, 2009
Posts: 246
Submissions: 3
Location: Chippewa Falls, Wis

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:21 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

if you have access to a friend with a machine shop, i would suggest instead of machining out each individual scale, would be to have him design a punch die set for you were you could punch your own scales. this way you could achieve the bend in each scale as well. now granted you would need to invest in some sort of arbor press for the dies to work, depending on what size/thickness scales you want to make would need to be figured out first before investing in a press. you could ideally make your own press as well with a bottle jack.

now as for an alternative source for scales you could also look into fishing bait supply places and look for spinners blades.

here is another topic dealing with the same question with a link to a retail outlet for spinner blades:

http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=14957&highlight=scales

Joined: August 10, 2005
Posts: 7098
Submissions: 337
Location: UK

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:11 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

One thing to be wary of with fishing spinner blades/lures is that the hole can be quite small which makes them awkward for using as scales.


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: June 08, 2006
Posts: 209
Submissions: 0
Location: the Netherlands

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:49 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Luziviech wrote:
Daemon_Lotos wrote:
I assume you're buying TRL scales from The Queen Ring...


- i guess you're rite bout "Queen ring", he's also selling pliers in the same colour, though different photo and it costs double the amount of TRL's price, same is with the scales: 70€/1000pcs


You are right, most of our supplies are from TRL. As for our prices, don't forget that they include 19% sales tax. Tax isn't listed on TRL's site (as is normal for American and Canadian stores). They also don't charge it for international orders, but the shipping company will probably ask you to pay tax before delivering the package. Add shipping and import dues, and I'm not sure you'd be much cheaper off buying them from TRL.


__________________
www.thequeenring.com

Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 18
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:21 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

well, let me tell you a story about making scales.

I tried once



IT SUCKS unless you've got a press/stamper, save your energy lol.

it takes a rediculous amount of time to make any real number, and secondly, you'll never be able to produce them with the consistency of a company like TRL. the only way i can see it happening is if you cut them a little wider (even 1mm would do) then place a guide over top that you use so you can grind off the excess without going past the finished edge. but like i said, it'll take an ungodly length of time because you'd have to do it for each individual ring, and something like a corset will require, in the neighbourhood, of 700 to 1000 scales, depending on size.

If you go ahead with it, I'm eager to hear about it and i hope it turns out well.

Joined: July 21, 2009
Posts: 59
Submissions: 7
Location: Dresden, Germany

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:33 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Hey folks,
thanx for all the latest postings and information.
Well, after reading most sum days ago, i thought bout where to get a stamper and whom to ask to provide the tool/stamp. I checked ebay for stampers, but as i dun have knowledge yet bout what kinda will be best for my issues, i decided to get to this knowledge first.
I guess, if i get a stamper and a tool, i'd probably tend to automate things. I dunno how far thats possible, but knowing a lil bit bout Arduino and being member of instructables.com as well, i'm quite optimistic that those things might work.
But another problem bout scales might be those sharp edges after cuttin/stampin.

I dunno if makin stamps works as project, but although TRL is quite the cheapest and not really more expensive than the spinner blades from worthco.com, i would have to pay loads of shipping costs and my seller takes double the price of TRL's scales.

Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 18
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:43 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

um....stampers are fairly large machines, usually powered by 3 phase. not usually something you can pick up on ebay. i'm sure there may be some sort of manual device you could find, but they'd likely be pretty pricy and huge.

i still say purchasing is your best plan

Joined: March 27, 2009
Posts: 1015
Submissions: 4
Location: Southeastern Minnesota

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:48 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Luziviech wrote:
But another problem bout scales might be those sharp edges after cuttin/stampin.

I would imagine if the scales are not anodized, one could potentially tumble them to remove some of the sharp edges. I believe that is what TRL does. If not, I suppose you may have to file or sand the edges so that they are safe to handle. These are just my thoughts, though, I don't actually have any experience in this particular matter.

Joined: July 21, 2009
Posts: 59
Submissions: 7
Location: Dresden, Germany

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:17 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

tumbling is what i thought bout, too. Ever since i found sum pyramid stone when i was a child i know bout those machines to stone-wash metal pieces; Another part of automated processing and yet another machine one has to buy to avoid filing/emering; quoting mailleman: it sucks...

@mailleman:
Certainly, buying is simplier and pricier. But only if you plan to make a single piece. I'm stuck on chainmailling, making loads of chains, building, rebuilding and trying to sell them. And the bigger the things are, the easier it gets to sell them. A corset costs me bout 5k scales, say 135€ material costs + shipping, if i buy it from TRL, almost double, if i buy it from my local seller who got the monopol in Germany, but what if i make the scales and sell them to my vendor? Call it suicide, but im unemployed, get no apprenticeship and my life sux, but theres just one tiny thing i luv to do that's carrying out my (crazy) ideas and such ideas need special material as well as special technics. Maybe consider it crap, maybe art, i dunno, i just need to do such stuff to stay alive.

Joined: December 19, 2009
Posts: 246
Submissions: 3
Location: Chippewa Falls, Wis

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:01 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

well, when looking for a stamper/press it all comes down to 2 things, 1. how fast you want to make the scales and 2. how much do you want to invest in a press.

the first option would be to go with a manual hydrolic press set up, normally called a shop press. they are relatively cheap, but making the scales will take time. you can normally pick one up for a couple hundred USD. ( to speed it up a little more you could buy an electronic pump set up i've seen for bottle jacks, they cost around 150 usd$)

http://www.harborfreight.com/garage-shop/shop-presses/12-ton-shop-press-33497.html

the next option would be a little more expensive, but you could look for an Air over Hydraulic Shop Press, now you would need a decent air compressor to work with this press and you could be looking into reaching the 500 - 600$ USD mark

http://www.harborfreight.com/garage-shop/shop-presses/20-ton-air-hydraulic-shop-press-with-oil-filter-crusher-65330.html

now the next option get more expensive but is considerably faster, it would be a mechanical flywheel press. now also with this option, you would need someplace like a garage, or a shop area to use it. prices i've seen them go for at machinery auctions range from about 2000$ - 10,000$ usd. some times you can find single phase, but most of the time they require 3 phase electrical to operate them. you can find broken ones cheaper, and normally they can be fixxed. but if you go this route, make sure you know exactly what is broken on the equipment, and see if its a part that can either be replaced, or even machined relatively cheap.

http://www.machineks.com/machines/o-b-i-presses-flywheel-type-2/10593-machine.html

no matter what option you go with, the dies are probably going to be expensive as well. but, if done correctly, you shouldn't have sharp edges as long as the die builder knows the thickness of the material you are going to be working with. and more then likely there not going to be interchangeable between presses. to get the tolerances just right they are going to have to be machined by some one who knows what there doing. and they'll probably need to be made out of tool steel, and then hardened after there made. and then, they will still eventually wear out.

Joined: July 21, 2009
Posts: 59
Submissions: 7
Location: Dresden, Germany

Reply with quote
Posted on Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:18 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

wow, thats kinda detailed...
Talked to my boss today and he said, good idea but almost impossible to realize. If it was only for my personal needs maybe, but not to machine things for purchase...
I dunno, but my life's startin to become the craze, i always wanted it to be and if i find enough ppl to share sum of my dreams, well, i'll have me one of those stamps anyways - i just love it (and that's the best thing that can happen to a cynic maniac-depressive pessimist as me am)...

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 989
Submissions: 244

Reply with quote
Posted on Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:57 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Good post Dravin, you mentioned almost everything.

There are a few other things I would have mentioned. There is the wear on the die, they get dull pretty fast and you need a surface grinder to sharpen them effectively. That's another large expensive machine hanging around. You'll also need a seperate de-reeler, which is large but not very expensive, and a waste chopper, which is small but expensive. In addition you'll likely need to add feed and lubrication systems to your press because it probably won't come with them.

You're also going to need the knowledge and skill to operate, maintain and repair all of those machines.

One final thing is that making something like that for personal use is no problem, but if it's for commercial use then you might find yourself in a sticky moral/legal situation.


www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 1 of 2. Goto page 1, 2  Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:09 am
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Knitting Circle
Display posts from previous: