Question about adding to gallery sub guidelines.
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Joined: December 22, 2007
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Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

Question about adding to gallery sub guidelines.
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Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:21 pm
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I would like to add a note in the Gallery Submission Guidelines that states:
"We do not allow advertising in either the picture or the description of a Gallery Submission. If your submission contains advertising, you will be asked to remove it before we approve addition to the gallery."

Yea, Nay, Meh?


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:43 pm
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yea. hmm.. we discussed this at one point. i seem to recall an unobtrusive watermark of some sort being acceptable in gallery images.. i'll try to dig up that thread later today.


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Joined: December 22, 2007
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Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

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Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:46 pm
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In my opinion, any advertising in the Gallery, Weaves, or Articles libraries should not be allowed. Links- yes. A member's profile- yes. When you click on a page called "Links", it's no surprise what you are getting into. When you click on someone's profile, you are most likely looking for information about that person. Again, no surprise that they might list a business or website name. Those are appropriate places for that.

As far as the forums go, a simple link in a member's sig is fine. A link to a business in a thread that is a relevant answer to a question (for example: "Hey, where should I buy a tumbler?") is appropriate and helpful. We have a Trading Room with rules and again, the title "Trading Room" is fair warning of what you are getting into.

I really don't like the idea of any more advertising than this being encouraged at MAIL. MAIL isn't and shouldn't be a commercial site. Allowing watermarks that advertise a business (Personally, I've never seen a "tasteful" one. They all annoy me.) in the pics or mentioning the name of a business in the description just takes us another step closer to "Well, you have it there! Why not here?"


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:52 pm
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i think the idea behind the unobtrusive watermark wasn't for advertising, but to protect the image from people image-jacking and putting them up on their own site as their own work.

we've had a couple examples of that happening recently.. of course, i understand there's some sort of metadata attached to the images when they get run through this site that can be used to identify the lazier thieves.

personally, i don't care. i doubt that my gallery images are prime examples of things people would say, "i can make this" without first developing their own pieces to prove it.

my point was, i think that some of this was covered in the watermarks in weaves discussion and it should be referenced if we're going to go over this again.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: December 22, 2007
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Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

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Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:37 pm
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I honestly don't know that much about watermarks. How effective are they at preventing theft? Is a watermark superficial, or does it leave some sort of a "trail" that can be followed to the thief's door? If it leaves a trail, can the watermark itself be "invisible"?

How about this? You can have a faint watermark if you insist, but it cannot be a business name. It can be your real name, screen name, file #, SS #, credit card # Very Happy , whatever. Just no advertising of business names.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:39 pm
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some people have their real name as their business name. grace cuplin, iirc, goes by her own name when she sells.

and i guess that's the line.. "unobtrusive".. if it goes through the center of the image, that's pretty annoying, if it's small and in the corner, maybe not.

it could be worth defining, but that sounds like a long conversation of niggling details.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: January 21, 2004
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Posted on Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:22 pm
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Watermarks can either be unobtrusive and largely pointless, or obtrusive and slightly less largely pointless. That is, any watermark that is in the corner of the photo can easily be cropped/cloned/obscured out. To be most effective, you'd need a watermark that completely covers the area of interest of the photo; which makes the photo useless for everyone. So watermarks are not at all a foolproof way to prevent image theft, though they can help deter or catch the lazier/more inept thieves.

There is a conceptual difference between Articles/Weaves and Gallery subs. Articles/Weaves are there explicitly to contribute knowledge and information to the community; whereas Gallery items are primarily to show off a personal accomplishment. Realistically, Gallery items are often used to demonstrate information and techniques, but that is generally not their main purpose. So there's a bit less of a reason for an absolute prohibition on watermarks in Gallery subs.

That being said, the MAIL gallery should not be used as a handy & free repository for uploading all of a business' photos to. There's Photobucket/Flickr/etc for that. I'm...not actually sure how that relates to the matter at hand, but I'm sure someone could connect the two.

So yeah, I guess I'd be ok with unobtrusive personal, and very unobtrusive business watermarks in Gallery subs. I think I said about as much when watermarks were discussed for Weave/Article photos.

-phong



-- CGMaille tutorials now hosted here at MAIL! --

Joined: December 22, 2007
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Posted on Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:55 pm
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Well, I really didn't intend for this to be about watermarks. While I am opposed to watermarks, I can learn to live with it if I have to.

What I am extremely opposed to is advertising in inappropriate places. I realize that the Gallery is not as highly regarded as Weaves and Articles as far as importance of information shared. (And that's NOT a sarcastic statement on my part. I happen to agree with that assessment.) But the Gallery is still just as much a part of the library as anything else, and I would dearly love to keep advertising out of it.

So, back to my original question:
I would like to add a note in the Gallery Submission Guidelines that states:
"We do not allow advertising in either the picture or the description of a Gallery Submission. If your submission contains advertising, you will be asked to remove it before we approve addition to the gallery."

I don't want to say "watermarks are allowed". I don't want to say "watermarks are NOT allowed." I don't want to mention watermarks at all in fact.

It just gives the gallery admins a legitimate guideline to point to when they see obvious advertising in a gallery submission, and need to PM that member to remove it for approval.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:01 pm
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perhaps i misunderstood.. what sort of advertising are you referring to?

like, direct links? or business plugs? there was an image with a business card in it, recently.. and the name of the business on the card was repeated in the description.. (you'd asked my opinion in #mail but i was working, and you'd gone when i got back).. that sort?

i went to watermarks because that's what i thought was being referenced..

what if someone did an inlay of their business name as a vending sign?

not trying to be a pain, i'm just trying to clarify.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: December 22, 2007
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Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

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Posted on Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:39 pm
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Yep, those are the kinds of things I am referring to. There was also an instance not too long ago where a guy with an armory website joined and immediately started submitting pics of the things he sells with a big fat watermark of the business name on the pic and in the description. This was and still is his only contribution to MAIL. I was instructed (by Deirdre) to PM him and let him know that he would have to remove the advertising before we would approve his submission. He never replied back, so they were rejected.

In reference to the inlay of a business name: I would not have a problem with approving that. If someone went to the trouble to make such an inlay and wanted to show it off in the gallery, I'd be happy to approve it. It is maille, it is an accomplishment, and it's not a picture of something they are selling.

Look, I don't want license to be petty and draconian here. All I'm really asking for is the ability to point to a written guideline when this happens in the future. (And there is no doubt in my mind that it will.) You are going to have to trust the gallery admins to know the advertising when they see it. But then you wouldn't be shackling people you can't trust to do their jobs in the first place, now would you? Very Happy And if I do something that you have a strong objection to, you can and should call me on it.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:46 pm
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i trust you, fully, to do your job.. but if we discuss these sort of details then this thread is a good reference to point to if the guidelines are questioned by a member.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: December 22, 2007
Posts: 4610
Submissions: 106
Location: Hampton, Virginia USA

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Posted on Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:55 pm
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Oh, I completely agree Chao. That's why I asked about it in the first place. I don't want to do anything "secretly". I'm sure there are some who consider this thread to be entirely trivial, and that's okay. But I just wanted to have a conversation about it that would allow any BoD members who do have an opinion about it to speak up.


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: April 29, 2002
Posts: 3213
Submissions: 93
Location: Albany, New York

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Posted on Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:02 pm
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I say, post the guideline, but also add some kind of statement about "the discretion of the admins". That way, you have the policy to point to if questioned, but you can make your own decisions...


"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

— George Bernard Shaw
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