Different weapons vs Maille article?
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Articles Discussion
   
Author Message

Joined: June 21, 2006
Posts: 1278
Submissions: 10
Location: The Philippines

Different weapons vs Maille article?
Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:27 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Before anything else, I am very well aware that maille is utterly useless against firearms and I have no intention of including any mention of such.

No on to what I wanted to say.

It just popped into my head this afternoon, and I'm not sure if this article exists or if it would be of any interest to people. Has an article been done on the effects on the armour/weapon with different weapons against different types of maille?

For example, the effect a sword would have while chopping at a sheet of non-riveted 14g galvy European 4-1 while worn by a person (or placed on top of a person substitute)? How much damage would the sword receive? What type of sword? Is the maille damaged? Was the body/substitute damaged?

Or what sort of damage would an axe do to 18g stainless 8-2?

Perhaps it's just me, but this comes off as a rather interesting (albeit insane) idea for an article.

Any ideas?


_________

Being from the third world, BMR claims the right to speak in the third person.

Joined: April 02, 2008
Posts: 2063
Submissions: 36
Location: Lincoln, NE

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:32 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I agree that it sounds very time consuming, but VERY interesting. So you are thinking of different weapons and weaves and how they (both weapon and weave) hold up.

For example:
Sword Slash - E 4-1, J4-1...
Sword Stab - E4-1, J4-1...

Ax - E4-1, J4-1...


Is that what you were thinking, if so I did see a utube video doing something like this once (can't find it right now). Sounds Great I say go for it!


Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

MailleCode V2.0 T5.3 R4.4 E0.0 Feur MFe.sBr Wg Cwb G.7-5.1 I3.1-11 N20.5 Pj Dcdjt Xa1w2 S08

Joined: June 21, 2006
Posts: 1278
Submissions: 10
Location: The Philippines

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:36 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Yes, it would be rather interesting. For the book-writers out there, it could even prove to be a useful resource. Now that you mention it, I think I may have also seen that YouTube video a few years back if I recall correctly. But I think it didn't have as much variety as I was thinking.

Another problem would be that the article would be insanely costly in terms of materials. Especially if the weaponry wound up damaged beyond repair. Still, I think I'll look more into this idea, it's really got the neurons firing Razz


_________

Being from the third world, BMR claims the right to speak in the third person.

Joined: March 12, 2003
Posts: 3058
Submissions: 74
Location: Tawas City

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:16 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

aye sounds like fun. another thing you may want to consider is the weapon beeing used. or rather the material of the weapon. back in the day when we made sutch weapons for acctual use there materials were made for sutch. nowadys they are made for play and not as good. do you intend to include piriod weapons or just the genrel week junk that is most of what is out there today.

If you want to see the effect of a forged weapon vs modern garbage on maille i have a few scraps i can link together prolly enought for a sheet of 4in1 rivited. my scrap swords prolyl better then the stamped out junk..Smile i also have GOOD modern weapons forged the old way but modern material

Invantory i can asist with
Axe: 13in wide 28lb Forged
Maul: Forged Iron 8lb
Katana: Forged, stamped
Semitar: Forged, stamped
Barong: Forged
Khopesh: Forged, stamped
Flammenschwert: Forged, stapmed
Waster: Wooden, plastic, and rubber
Falx: Forged
Gladius: Forged, casted
Zweihander: Forged


maille Code V2.0 T8.3 R6.4 Ep.f Fper Mfe.s Wsg$ Cpw$ G0.25-2.5 I0.5-30 N31.31 Pa Dacdjw Xa27g37w1 S94

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 930
Submissions: 243

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:30 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I'm not sure that I see the usefulness of this test. It's been proposed many times in the past but the same issues crop up.

It's not an accurate simulation of historical combat, it won't give any insight at all as to how historical weapons and armour performed in battle. That sort of test would set you back ~100K to even approximate proper scientific method.

Neither is it an accurate test of modern armour and common present day weapons under realistic conditions. Those type of tests are usually certified by a testing organization(such as the NIJ), and rigorously controlled by them. If your armour meets their qualification standards then they will test it for you but your own tests can't be certified.

Either of these two scenarios would definitely make a very good article that would indeed be a valuable resource.

What you are proposing is a test of something that sort of looks like armour but is not actually ever used as real armour, versus, weapons that are at best anachronistic and at worst not actually real weapons at all.

Other than just for the fun of it, what educational value does that have to anyone?


http://www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

Joined: March 12, 2003
Posts: 3058
Submissions: 74
Location: Tawas City

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:26 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Quote:
It's not an accurate simulation of historical combat, it won't give any insight at all as to how historical weapons and armour performed in battle.


this is a moot piont, can't do it like they did then because there is no one here from the 16c. sorry bud! its all best guess.

Quote:
That sort of test would set you back ~100K to even approximate proper scientific method.


okay what is the defanition of the scientific method? -->

1.Define the question
2.Gather information and resources.Form a hypothesis
4.Perform experiment and collect data
5.Analyze data
6.Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7.results
8.Retest

don't need 100k in modern equipment to meshure results, collect data eta. just take an educated person to preform the tasks at hand.

Quote:
Neither is it an accurate test of modern armour and common present day weapons under realistic conditions.


as no one has said how we are to do theses test this comment is premature.

Quote:
Those type of tests are usually certified by a testing organization(such as the NIJ), and rigorously controlled by them.


I really don't care if it approved by any one just doing it for fun.

Quote:
What you are proposing is a test of something that sort of looks like armour but is not actually ever used as real armour, versus, weapons that are at best anachronistic and at worst not actually real weapons at all.


on a maille site and your saying maille is not armor? what have we been doing for all these mounths?

Quote:
Other than just for the fun of it, what educational value does that have to anyone?


Fun is the piont. for me at least. i don't care if anyone learns anything from it or not.


maille Code V2.0 T8.3 R6.4 Ep.f Fper Mfe.s Wsg$ Cpw$ G0.25-2.5 I0.5-30 N31.31 Pa Dacdjw Xa27g37w1 S94

Joined: June 21, 2006
Posts: 1278
Submissions: 10
Location: The Philippines

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:48 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Aye, it's not really for any historical/scientific information. Rather, its more for the looks of it all. And, like MaxumX said, it would be a lot a fun.

The money would actually be an issue in terms of materials, but I'm not really planning to use anything new, just stuff of adequate condition that I have lying around. Might be expensive, but I don't think it's really going to hit 100k, but still might be expensive.


_________

Being from the third world, BMR claims the right to speak in the third person.

Joined: September 26, 2009
Posts: 459
Submissions: 0
Location: Meridies

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:59 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Quote:
It's not an accurate simulation of historical combat, it won't give any insight at all as to how historical weapons and armour performed in battle.


There are mitigation measures one can take. For example, one can put a hauberk on a dead pig, to account for the different ways maille acts on a living being (shock distribution, puncture wounds from broken rings, etc). One can use NEARLY period weapons--I know several blacksmiths that have made weapons like those that existed in the Middle Ages. I know of some that go so far as to match the methods of smelting, though that's not necessary. Bad modern steel would serve as a fair analog for ancient steel.

Even better, you could cast a bronze sword/axe/spear tip. Bronze is bronze, and it doesn't matter if you made it 2,000 years ago or today. And while bronze wasn't the material of choice for weapons in the Middle Ages, maille isn't limited to 500 to 1500 AD. Romans used maille, and they fought several civilizations that used predominantly bronze weaponry. Considering bronze is nearly impossible to forge, we don't have to worry about copying ancient methods--so long as you get a similar amount of voids (read, few to none) you're good.

For more modern weapons (rapiers, pikes, and the like) modern steel analogs would suffice. Say, 15th to 16th century maille against a rapier. Not exactly an impossible event, though I'd wager unlikely. The maille of that era I've seen (Austrian museum of arms and armor, and the Carneige Museum of Art that I'm specifically thinking of, though there were others) was really limited to a skirt, covering the upper thighs and the groin. Not exactly an ideal place to stab someone (better to slice off the straps holding his armor on, then run him through the gut), but not an unlikely target (instincts and all). Hang maille between two poles about 8" to 10" apart and poke it with a sword. Start with just your arm, then a poke where you lean into it, then a full lunge. The motion of a maille skirt during combat isn't going to substantially alter the results.

Just make sure you use the proper size links, and rivits, and wire. That's the main issue.

Quote:
Other than just for the fun of it, what educational value does that have to anyone?


This is what we scientists call preliminary testing. There are problems, yes. We all know there are problems. And we're all aware of those problems. They can be mitigated, but not fully eliminated at this stage.

What we can learn is how maille AS SUCH handles the force of a weapon striking it AS SUCH (caps for emphasis, not anger). Do the rings break? Do the rivits break? Do they slice into the pig carcass? Do they do anything at all? Does some of the weapon pierce the armor, while other parts do not? Does a long blade make a better weapon than a short? Crushing vs. stabbing force? That sort of thing. You include a list of your biases with the results (in fact, that's often what a "Discussion" section is).

The problem with biases is, you always have them. If we were in the Middle Ages, we'd be in one location, and dealing with, in all likelyhood, one or two sources of ore, with a limited number of smiths. That's a bias--any other area, with other ore, and other smiths, would create different armor. The goal isn't to elliminate them, but rather to limit them if we can, and acknowledge them when we can't.

Like I said, this is a preliminary test. Once we figure this out, we can pick one bias to play with. Say, composition of the maille. We adjust the composition and hit it with a spear a few times. Then an axe, and a sword, etc. Or, we decide to focus on the rivits--we make a few hauberks, using period rivits, and see which is best at absorbing/dissipating force/protecting the wearer. Each test doesn't provide a great deal of information, but over time, as more tests are conducted, we begin to eliminate biases by focusing more precise tests against each one.

The role of a preliminary test like this is to eliminate broad catagories of future tests. If slicing force can't cut, even in as bad a simulation as you assume this to be, we can safely ignore it in the future. Or, say we find that maille doesn't offer statistically significant protection against blunt force, we can ignore maces and the like in future tests. Not completely--someone will always want to re-run the test for themselves, just to check--but instead of "Will this work?" our question changes to "This won't work well; let's see how well it works, and how to make it work better".

Even though this test isn't perfect, I'd say it's certainly worth doing. If nothing else, it will provide a framework for conducting the type of tests you seem to desire.

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 930
Submissions: 243

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:14 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

MaxumX wrote:
this is a moot piont, can't do it like they did then because there is no one here from the 16c. sorry bud! its all best guess.


Not true, there is a lot of historical information available, a lot of research has already been done in the field. Fairly accurate scenarios could be developed, but it would be time and resource intensive.

Quote:

don't need 100k in modern equipment to meshure results, collect data eta. just take an educated person to preform the tasks at hand.


100K is a very low estimate, and I'm mostly talking about the costs of antique equipment, or reasonable facsimiles thereof. Just try to find a period coat of maille for less than $5,000 US, and that will only get you torn up junk.

Quote:
as no one has said how we are to do theses test this comment is premature.


The OP gave specific examples, you yourself made a list of "weapons". Neither of those has been in line with a realistic test of modern or historical armour so far.

Quote:
I really don't care if it approved by any one just doing it for fun.


Yes it sounds like a lot of fun, but I thought the point of this discussion was to write an article for the knowledge base here on the MAIL site. That's why it's in the articles discussion forum.

Quote:
on a maille site and your saying maille is not armor? what have we been doing for all these mounths?


"non-riveted 14g galvy European 4-1" or "18g stainless 8-2", you think that's real armour? You have a lot to learn. There are very few maillers who know how to make good reproduction maille. There are even fewer who bother to do it.


http://www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 930
Submissions: 243

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:30 am || Last edited by lorenzo on Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:00 am; edited 2 times in total
Link to Post: Link to Post

BladeMaster-Raven wrote:
Aye, it's not really for any historical/scientific information. Rather, its more for the looks of it all. And, like MaxumX said, it would be a lot a fun.


If that's the case then I suggest that you move this discussion to the knitting circle.

I think that most of the MAIL admins would hesitate before allowing an article that evaluates the protective qualities of maille in a haphazard fashion just due to the potential for legal liability.


http://www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4372
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:38 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

lorenzo wrote:

I think that most of the MAIL admins would think hesitate before allowing an article that evaluates the protective qualities of MAIL in a haphazard fashion just due to the potential for legal liability.


only if you framed it in that light. i actually hadn't gone there yet..

for some reason i have this idealistic worldview that keeps me from thinking that people are complete morons. this is, of course, completely moronic of me.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 930
Submissions: 243

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:58 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Dinwar,

I can agree with most of your general points, but your assumptions on the quality of metal(both steel and bronze) used in historical weapons and armour is unproven at best.

Your assumption that a dead pig is a realistic test of the lethality of a weapon is ridiculous. How will you tell if a blow causes enough pain to debilitate? Dead pigs don't bruise, they don't give way when struck, They don't even have a similar bone or skin density.

Also I would like to point out that already you are talking about a very resource intensive experiment.

Personally, I have no desire to do historical tests. My main interest is with modern armour but in the course of my career I have had a lot of experience with and seen a lot of tests of various types of armour.


http://www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

Joined: June 21, 2006
Posts: 1278
Submissions: 10
Location: The Philippines

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:16 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Now that I think about it, this actually sounds like something Mythbusters would try Razz

But alas, the more I think about it actually, the more I believe that its beyond me to actually try this, resource and time-wise. Still I think I'll hang on to the idea for a possible future project, hehe.

Doing a little more research shows that this has already been done a lot by other people already (like the aforementioned YouTube video). YouTube gives videos of maille against swords, axes, bows and arrows, crossbows, knives, etc...

So perhaps the suggesting of the article is actually a bit redundant Razz


_________

Being from the third world, BMR claims the right to speak in the third person.

Joined: March 27, 2008
Posts: 132
Submissions: 46
Location: Ruhrgebiet / Germany

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:12 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

lorenzo wrote:
Dead pigs don't bruise, they don't give way when struck, They don't even have a similar bone or skin density.

Take a look at this dissertation:
Sudhues, H. (2004): Wundballistik bei Pfeilverletzungen
He uses dead pigs for examinations about wounds which were caused by different bows and crossbows.

Joined: February 24, 2010
Posts: 234
Submissions: 1

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:24 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

As for using authentic armor...here is an authentic antique Japanese chain armor which sold for $200 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110511224625&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_23289wt_828 and you can buy authentic Japanese antique swords for a couple of hundred dollars also... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270554322173&ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT#ht_500wt_976 No need to break the bank if you are a good shopper.

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 1 of 2. Goto page 1, 2  Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:56 am
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Articles Discussion
Display posts from previous: