Strongest Weave
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Posted on Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:29 pm
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Theta mail, then? Indian, primarily, and half and half thetas and riveted links.


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Posted on Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:45 pm
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I've seen a shirt and several scraps of maille around with theta rings. Figuring out how to make or source them has kinda been my holy grail for the past year or so.

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Posted on Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:09 am
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mithrilweaver wrote:
i'm willing to take lorenzo's word that 2 in 1 chain is the strongest. but, i wonder why industrial chains don't use close to minimum ar? all the chains i've ever seen have large ars. isn't this sacrificing strength?


It does sacrifice a bit of strength, but not so much due to the oval links. In addition larger AR chains are much easier to manufacture and tend to kink less. Chains can break very easily if the the links get kinked up so they need enough clearance to move freely.


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Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

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Posted on Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:20 am
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Karpeth wrote:

What makes me curious is why J4-1 would be strongest. I'd like to see the algorithmical comparison to E4-1, the only "real" competitor.


As I recall they come out pretty close in terms of maximum strength. The main difference is that the Japanese weave maintains 90% or so of it's maximum flexibility while the European weave has virtually none left, making it useless as armor.


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Posted on Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:30 pm
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Chainmail couldn't stop a bullet unless it is very strong and welded. If you did make chainmail strong enough you would need to add steel plates beneath to cushion the blow. It also depends what caliber of bullet you are planning to stop, because a .50 cal would blow thru any chainmail or plate armor. Welded chainmail might be able to stop smaller calibers such as a .22. What might work is, you could take a leather shirt and sew on 1/8 in steel scales. The scale Idea would be significantly heavier but more flexible than plate armor and stronger than chainmail.

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Posted on Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:32 pm
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No matter what caliber maille WILL NOT stop a bullet!!!!!!1 Mad Evil or Very Mad Mad If it did we would not have advanced the armour technology to where it is currently.


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Posted on Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:44 am
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See Battle of Omdurman, second of September 1898. .303 bullet hits scattered fragments of as many as five mail links down the wound channels. And that's riveted links too.

Not all the Mahdi's troops wore mail into the fight, but those that did suffered for it.


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Posted on Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:01 am
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Cinnibar wrote:
I've seen a shirt and several scraps of maille around with theta rings. Figuring out how to make or source them has kinda been my holy grail for the past year or so.


Punch them out. By hand. That's what they did back in the day, I think. You'd want to score a used Roper-Whitney No.7 or No.8 bench punch. I think either model has close to 5 tons punching power (way more than the No.5 Junior or the No.XX, which models are around 1.2 tons). The greater power of the others allows punching out bigger circular blanks to start out with.

Then you'd need to organize a punch with a cutting head that's close to semicircular, to leave the bar across the theta and hit each punched-out disc blank with well aligned near-semicircular holes, two of these per link.

Straightforward, but also 1/3 again as many punch strokes as you'd need for home-punching simple circular links. And there'd consequently be a learning curve.

Somebody's immediately going to pop up and suggest steps for welding thetas up from wire. To which I say "maybe." You might be able to, with fast, dextrous manipulation, but this learning curve is reported to be high and steep. A big PITA. Especially if you're trying to do this by forge welding, and have to cope with how big a heat sink an anvil is! You can bet the ones so popping up and suggesting have never actually tried it!

At least multiple punching strokes isn't a juggling act between heating and hammering, and metallographic analysis of solid links with no fasteners, rivets, anywhere in them shows randomly aligned impurities in the metal, which would be linearly stretched out and parallel with the length of the wire were the links made of pre-drawn wire, not just pointing any old way or none at all, as is seen with such links. This proves that these were punched out of sheets of metal. The method is to take out a link, polish a flat on one or the other face of the link (doesn't matter which) and then lightly etch to bring up the metallographic structure. Inclusions like silica become evident under a microscope.


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Posted on Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:37 pm || Last edited by ClymAngus on Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Interesting, so (and pardon my ignorance here) is this suggesting theta as "drop in" links or say woven in an almost scale maille design? Bolstering a 4 in 1 weave?

Also although I agree with lorenzo's fundamental principle that armour evolved along the most pragmatic of lines, due to the wealth of "field testing" that was applied to it. I am also interested in other contributing factors of this "environment" that may have influenced this evolutionary process.

Cost
Material
Skills

All minor attributions when compared to functionally and practically to be sure. But all part of the environment that would have attributed to the evolution of armour.

I'm not calling people out here. Just illustrating that this is a very interesting topic that, unfortunately may stand up to vigorous investigation much in the same way a fractal drawing does. You could accidentally fall into it and keep on going.

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Posted on Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:43 pm
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I have seen theta links woven in the piece like any normal ring. There was one piece I saw years ago that was all theta rings.


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Posted on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:17 am
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MusicMan wrote:
I have seen theta links woven in the piece like any normal ring. There was one piece I saw years ago that was all theta rings.


Boy, I'd like to see the manufacturing steps on that! I'm imagining two rivets per link -- not impossible -- a rivet at either end of the theta crossbar, and the blank shaped like a barred-spiral galaxy -- and four rivet holes drifted in. Hey, modern times, you could do it with resistance welding, and cut out the drifting step entirely. Boy, is that the road to madness!

Alternating rows of theta and regular is the usual method. The regular links may be smaller.


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Posted on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:23 am
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ClymAngus wrote:
Interesting, so (and pardon my ignorance here) is this suggesting theta as "drop in" links or say woven in an almost scale maille design? Bolstering a 4 in 1 weave?


Nearer to a speedweave method, since you can build mail casting two links on at a time. In the E4-1 mail unit, the four links out at the corners of the unit are the preclosed/solid punched/theta links; the center link is the regular non-theta. Alternating rows is the finished product; turn it on its side and there's your open hang, scale style.


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Posted on Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:12 pm
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Here is where I first encountered "theta" rings. It is not the example that I talked about but an interesting discussion. It is found under article 28 & 29. My personal thought is that theta rings are the end of coils when you are using a slotted mandrel. After a couple thousand coils you have enough theta rings to make a piece.

Konstantin the Red wrote:
MusicMan wrote:
I have seen theta links woven in the piece like any normal ring. There was one piece I saw years ago that was all theta rings.


Boy, I'd like to see the manufacturing steps on that! I'm imagining two rivets per link -- not impossible -- a rivet at either end of the theta crossbar, and the blank shaped like a barred-spiral galaxy -- and four rivet holes drifted in. Hey, modern times, you could do it with resistance welding, and cut out the drifting step entirely. Boy, is that the road to madness!

Alternating rows of theta and regular is the usual method. The regular links may be smaller.



Once you stop learning, you stop living, so...
Ask questions.
Try new things.
Share what you know.

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Posted on Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:29 pm
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Fabbing up thetas from the wire by welding, using a jewelers' tip to your welding torch (it's tiny), would be a good *modern* method of making them. Not medieval in the least.

What they had for welding then was forgewelding, a/k/a fusion welding. Problem to solve is that an anvil's large mass of iron will cool those links past welding them, and after the moment needed to flux them for forgewelding, instantly. Doable in theory, if everything goes perfect. In practice, a PITA. Probably should use tongs heated in the forge fire to black heat, grab, pinch, then hammer the tongs' jaws. Less of a heat-sink that way. And you're *still* juggling like a guy with a spinning-plates act. It's less crazy to punch the things from sheet.

Making thetas from wire using an end-slot mandrel: consider coil one link, cut one link; coil one, cut one, and on and on. Coil two links and cut, producing half and half wire thetas and regular links, for making mail half and half.

Note the Blackmaile articles note that there would be just a couple dozen thetas throughout an entire mail piece (!) -- suggests reinforcement of the mail isn't the intent.


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Posted on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:35 pm
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I do hear that metal 3D printers are coming along quite nicely. (metal dust and glue, that's then cooked off in the baking process)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-47869161/3d-printing-you-can-make-any-product-in-any-location

I do wonder if this might have applications in association with chainmaille designs.

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