Strongest Weave
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Posted on Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:26 pm
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For industrial/design purposes, this quote is also vital:

Quote:
Not only that but they are the only weaves that maintain full flexibility at near minimum AR's.


A chain that doesn't flex isn't all that useful. Maybe for static uses (say, hanging a birdhouse), but at that point you can save time/money buy just putting a wire up.

Out of curiosity (since we've ben discussing Japanese maille recently), when you say J4-1, you're refering the four small links connecting to each big link, correct? No doubling up or anything?

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Posted on Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:17 am
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Yes, 4 small links per 1 big link, additionally the AR's are tweaked so that the the strength of 2 small links is roughly equal to the strength of one large link.

I think perhaps it was Ironband who was doing it? I'm probably wrong about that. It was discussed on one of the boards, and linked to a personal website but both appear to be gone now.

I didn't keep any data handy and I don't remember much about it, but I'll see what I can dig up.


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Posted on Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:24 pm
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OK, this should be the equation to calculate relative individual ring strength. F represents the amount of force that any one butted ring can withstand. If you want ultimate ring strength then you have to calculate the area moment of inertia seperately and multiply it by the Young's modulus of whatever material you are using.

F=π^2(π/64(wire diameter^4))/((inner diameter+outer diameter)π/4)^2

The next step is to calculate, generally by counting, how many rings are in each horizontal row of the weave(or chain) per a set width at a set wire guage and minimum AR. Multiply F by the # counted to find the total force a sheet can withstand per area or a chain per length. You might want to calculate both per area and per weight values of each to find the strength:weight ratio of a finished piece of armor.

Make sure that you are orienting each sheet in it's strongest direction, for instance e4-1 is strongest this way.

(((((((((((((((((
)))))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((((
)))))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((((

J4-1 is strongest this way.

.OOOOOOOOO
VVVVVVVVVVV
OOOOOOOOOO
.VVVVVVVVVV
.OOOOOOOOO


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Strongest Weave ...
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Posted on Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:15 am
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If you are going to test the tensile strength of the maille, isn't that only one part of the true strength? In my experience, Maille is used to resist penetration and slashing more often than to hold weights off the floor. In this case, wouldn't you want to also for the penetration resistance and slashing resistance to form a three dimensional strength rating for Maille?

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Posted on Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:47 pm
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The resistance to deformation is very closely related to the resistance to shearing, the same model can be used to calculate both. In terms of a relative measure between weaves it is sufficient.

In terms of the ultimate strength of real armour it's irrelevant. Any weave that is light and flexible and made out of quality materials will be protective enough. If you need more protection then you should be wearing plate armour.


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Posted on Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:57 am
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Yeah...And maille that protects against SCA blows is almost too heavy to fight in.

I never knew that there was a strong and weak orientation to E4-1. It sort of makes sense, I just never considered it. Guess there's stuff still to learn about the simplest weaves!

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lotsoquestions
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Posted on Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:04 pm
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Ok, IM new so please forgive any annoyance, As I have lots of questions.
1. what is an SCA hit? and can chainmail withstand it?
2. Can chainmail stop a bullet and if so what kind of padding is needed to prevent bones from braking?
3. I keep hearing about superior weaves that are really strong but not very flexible, would it be possible to use said on flexible weave, and then use a flexible weave for areas that need mobility?
Final Question. If you were to line your chain mail with hard leather or place a plate over it (like the chest area, shoulders, and back) would that increase its overall effective ness.
note> I found this thread through google so I apologize if I'm in the wrong spot with these questions.


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Posted on Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:43 am
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You're at least in the right forum, good call. There's this site and there's also The Ring Lord's Chain Mail Forum for the other mail site. Some of those you see here also read and write over there under the same handles.

I made most of my replies in your other thread but other good questions can still get an answer.

Mail plus padding, a padded jacket called a gambeson, is totally the way to go. The armor-heads are finding that if mail links get fairly flattened in the overlapping process the mail spreads impact well enough that only a quite thin gambeson is really needed; nowhere near as thick as a gambeson intended for standalone use with no mail on it. With round-wire butted links, the effect is not as good for spreading the hits out and more gamby is wanted. So, think of mail as a team player.

The SCA hit, or "telling blow," is considered like "Was this hit enough that if that sword had been sharp steel would it have cut through a mail shirt enough to damage the guy in it? -- or break his limb?" In the SCA game it is mostly not just touch him, as is just about the case with modern fencing with epée or saber, but to thwack him hard enough. So that everyone gets a chance, the blow power is universal for everyone, regardless whether he's in a leather jerkin or full cap-à-pie white-harness.

Yes, a breastplate over mail would increase the protection. At a corresponding added weight. Bear in mind you're designing foot armor here, and not aerospace components. Armor is going to weigh something; you should go for keeping total weight to the range of 40 to 60 pounds tops, depending on comprehensiveness. At neither weight are you going swimming -- just sinking, 'k?


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Posted on Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:57 am
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For Item 3, those are also very heavy. At that point, you're better beating out some plate using
    hammers
    rawhide-face split head hammers such as Thor or Garland Mfg.
    heavy wooden mallets
    homebuilt pile driver if you have a friend you can team up with
    a ratty old ruined bowling ball as your piledriver, suspended with bungee cords


The Garlands, wood mallets, piledriver and bowling ball basherizer can all make a sheet of steel into a smoothly curved, rounded breastplate, the curves of large radius. Use, by various techniques, either a wood stump or an anvil's top.

Water-hardened leather -- the method needs a very cool oven to do -- will protect very well from general impact hits just by itself and never mind any mail. Provides some resistance against sharp swords. Worthwhile if leather is all you can work. Also not cheap, though you can economize using leather that isn't perfectly top grade stuff. Water hardened leather can also be the basis of lamellar scales, so you can use scrap leather if you can get it thick enough -- little, cut-off pieces, with leather thongs attaching lame to lame to lame. Doesn't jingle.


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Re: lotsoquestions
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Posted on Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:24 pm
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diregriffon wrote:
2. Can chainmail stop a bullet and if so what kind of padding is needed to prevent bones from braking?


While we're at it... No, it won't.
What it will do, is add more shrapnel to the bullet wound. Broken bits of link, etc...

Maille + Bullet = Bad or Dead.



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Posted on Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:28 am
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i'm willing to take lorenzo's word that 2 in 1 chain is the strongest. but, i wonder why industrial chains don't use close to minimum ar? all the chains i've ever seen have large ars. isn't this sacrificing strength?



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Posted on Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:46 pm
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It doesn't matter a great deal if the links are made with a crossbar across the middle of the link, anchor chain style. Those are the strongest chains around.


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Posted on Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:28 pm
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mithrilweaver wrote:
i'm willing to take lorenzo's word that 2 in 1 chain is the strongest. but, i wonder why industrial chains don't use close to minimum ar? all the chains i've ever seen have large ars. isn't this sacrificing strength?


Most chains I have seen are oval, with low AR.

What makes me curious is why J4-1 would be strongest. I'd like to see the algorithmical comparison to E4-1, the only "real" competitor.


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Posted on Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:21 pm
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For a "telling SCA hit" to the helmet, here's how I do it, assuming I ever get back in the rattan game at my age and with foot troubles.

A good hit to the helm is pretty loud, sometimes very loud, though it doesn't hurt your ears. Just a loud impact. The other part of it is, all right, it was noisy, now how far to the opposite side did this make my head roll? Pretty far over is enough, just a little bit I wouldn't count as a proper blow.

This quality of sword blow power is judged by the recipient. It pays not to be stubborn about it -- always accept as fair, telling blows somewhat lighter than the blows you dish out. If your opponent landed one on you and you didn't take it, he's going to dial it up to hit you twice as hard next time. As you can tell, it therefore pays to stay reasonable.

It also means not so many dents in your helmet. So, reasonable taking is helpful to armor maintenance. If you play in the SCA, you will log some hours of repair time every month; maintenance never ends. Good thing to have a fighter-buddy over to your place to chat while the two of you fix straps and stuff. It's usually straps, then rivets.


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Posted on Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:49 am
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Konstantin the Red wrote:
It doesn't matter a great deal if the links are made with a crossbar across the middle of the link, anchor chain style. Those are the strongest chains around.


Yeah, I gave a talk on chain and the Victorians and the cross bar link came up a couple of times. Primarily anchor chain although I seem to remember at least one surviving mail shirt made out of the stuff. (can't find the link)

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