Not a complaint as such but a concern
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Not a complaint as such but a concern
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Posted on Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:21 am
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As has been suggested by Blaise and posted here because lorenzo suggested this is right place for complaints (and brought up by me in the 'concern' thread in Chat). I have a small moan.
I (and the job I did) is being discussed in Admin Discussion, not everything being said there is correct and some of it is slightly hurtful. I think this is bad form considering I can't respond to any of it there.

I was asked to read the admin discussions by a BOD member as it was thought I would have some helpful input but where am I supposed to give this input?
Considering what's being said over there it would seem this BOD's opinion is a lone one anyway.

This all came about because membership being able to post in admin discussion came up and when I mentioned that I couldn't respond to talk about me there I was accused of passive aggressive behavior.

So I'm trying to do the right thing (but probably getting it wrong again).


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Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:15 pm
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in my opinion the job you did was on par with what lorenzo, tess and i did.. i see the complaints being about the system in general, and not your specific work. that being said, as i mentioned in PM, we need to be able to discuss what we liked and didn't like about a system in order to improve it.

my advice is to not take it personally.

as to, "getting it wrong".. what actions would you like to see happen?
this, and your PM come across as venting.. this is fine, but the response to venting is to listen.. and then maybe, there are hard feelings because "nothing was done".. are you looking for something specific?

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:00 pm
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I'd like to see everyone stop bickering and talk properly.
I really liked CShake's suggestion of members being able to comment on admin discussions. OK I too can see a whole minefield opening up with this but maybe there's another way of doing it.

My suggestion is to have an area where admins and members can discuss openly what is discussed in Admin Discussion or any issues related to the way the site is run, BOD members, the library ... whatever. Often most members will be happy to leave it to the BOD but there are times when they will have a real contribution to make but don't because they don't know how to approach it or who/where to talk about it.

Also I think members should be able to feel that they can bring up a complaint or concern and get some real help back. Help from other members and admins.
All too often when I was an admin I had PMs from members saying that their concerns were passed over or ignored. I'm not trying to say this will fix everything but surely feedback form all aspects of membership can't be a bad thing.

The admins very often find themselves locked in a debate where no descision is made and nothing gets done and everyone gets frustrated, these situations could be improved with a membership vote which could be time limited.
It's been suggested before (not by me) and to me it seemed that most people liked the idea but as with most things like this it never happened.

MAIL is supposed to be about the membership so let them take a more active role. If it fails, it fails and we'll have to come up with other ideas.


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Posted on Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:47 pm
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Legba3 wrote:
I'd like to see everyone stop bickering and talk properly.


As the old addage goes... Conflict breeds creativity... As long as you can take a step back and realize that nobody is after you personally, a lot of good can come out of 'bickering' at times.


Legba3 wrote:
Often most members will be happy to leave it to the BOD but there are times when they will have a real contribution to make but don't because they don't know how to approach it or who/where to talk about it.


This is part of the reason I added the 'Admin Titles' under usernames in the forum... Perhaps when all users are more aware of who is reponsible for what, they will know who to approach.


Legba3 wrote:
Also I think members should be able to feel that they can bring up a complaint or concern and get some real help back. Help from other members and admins.
All too often when I was an admin I had PMs from members saying that their concerns were passed over or ignored. I'm not trying to say this will fix everything but surely feedback form all aspects of membership can't be a bad thing.


Personally, I feel all members of the BOD are approachable... If anyone else feels otherwise, I ask them to please come forward to a member of the BOD they *are* comfortable with... And bring it to light. We can't operate in the dark if a memkber feels there's a problem.



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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:41 am
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
This is part of the reason I added the 'Admin Titles' under usernames in the forum... Perhaps when all users are more aware of who is reponsible for what, they will know who to approach.


Which is very helpful, thank you.

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Personally, I feel all members of the BOD are approachable...


I completely agree. But then, I'm a newb, as it were, and as such I don't have a long history of interaction here to base this opinion on.

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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:22 am
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Legba3 wrote:

The admins very often find themselves locked in a debate where no descision is made and nothing gets done and everyone gets frustrated, these situations could be improved with a membership vote which could be time limited.

MAIL is supposed to be about the membership so let them take a more active role. If it fails, it fails and we'll have to come up with other ideas.


Quoting myself but this was the most important point I was trying to make and it was passed over.


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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:09 pm
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have the membership vote on what, exactly?

most often nothing gets done because no one stands up and says, "i'm doing this." a member could stand up and say that.. and realistically that doesn't mean that anything gets done.. before phong was an admin he helped put together a newbie page.. i still can't find that thing when i go looking for it. i seem to remember it being put in some intuitive place.

this is less often the case.. typically no one presents something that looks like a roughly finished proposal that might get voted on someday.. it's the niggling details that never get worked out.

this is why i think holding the admin discussions in a place where members can respond would be more effective than asking the members to click a "yes" or "no" button.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:19 pm
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Kim I completely agree (see above) a membership vote on something (anything that can't be decided on by the BOD) is just part of what I'm talking about.
I go back to CShake's suggestion in Chat, it's got to be worth trying.


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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:49 pm
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well there are 2 possible steps forward here.

1) member initiated route. an issue poll has to be made and it needs participation by a certain percentage of the active membership

5.3 - An issue poll can be initiated by any member in good standing of the M.A.I.L. community by posting a clearly labelled and worded poll to the discussion board with the subject line "MAIL ISSUE POLL: 'topic' ". This poll determines whether a vote will be taken. An issue poll is considered to be successful if a majority of those participating in the poll are in favor of initiating a vote on the issue presented in the poll. An issue poll must be acted on by the B.O.D. when a significant portion of the currently active membership have participated in the poll.

we have not defined "significant portion".. our active member count is somewhere in the range of 131 to 825, depending on which statistic we use.. i'd say that 50 votes would be enough of a cross section for me to back whatever result was had.

the next step would be to post a vote:

5.2.1 - A review vote is used to attempt to reverse an action already taken by the B.O.D. or one of its members. A review vote by the B.O.D may be initiated by any member of the B.O.D. by posting a poll for the members of the B.O.D.. A review vote by the membership may be initiated by a successful issue poll of the membership. Review votes must be officially posted by an appointed representative of the B.O.D., and titled "MAIL REVIEW VOTE: 'topic' "

in this case the action taken by the BOD would be making the BOD discussion forum read only.

2) the other option is to find a couple of admins to work this out... you know how that can go. a successful member initiated issue poll would force the matter... and might be enough by itself, without the review vote.. or, that's my take on it.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:59 pm || Last edited by sakredchao on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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i would suggest,
MAIL ISSUE POLL:Should MAIL allow all members to post in admin discussion threads, or should posting in the admin forum be reserved for BOD members only?

* Yes, all members should be allowed to post in admin discussion threads
* No, posting in the admin discussion forum should remain reserved for BOD members only

a separate forum with the current admin forum restrictions would be needed to carry out BOD votes.

anyone could potentially post this sort of poll.
after looking through the charter again, i think the 131 number is the applicable one.

kim


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3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:11 pm
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sakredchao wrote:
* Yes, all members should be allowed to post in admin discussion threads
* no, the admin discussion forum should be reserved for BOD members only

I propose a slight rewording, as surely nobody wants to make the admin's forum a completely closed one, invisible for the public. That could be implied with your wording. So in case such a poll is initiated, the 'no' selection should be (to describe clearly the current status):

"No, posting in the admin discussion forum should remain reserved for BOD members only".

And BTW: we should encourage the membership to post issues they have in the 'requests' forum, as I think that this is one of the purposes of 'Requests'.

-ZiLi-


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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:16 pm
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In my opinion the system we have is ideal. Members can already vote to change things, but first they have to care enough to actually want to change things. People who just want to complain and don't offer a better solution get weeded out automatically.


www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:00 pm
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I could see the opportunity to discuss things in the admin forum as helpful. There have been some times when I wished I could have contributed to the conversation, and tried to through PM's, but never heard back from the person I PM'd or saw any evidence of my contribution in the thread.

One possible solution could be to have threads in the admin section that could be "locked" or "unlocked" as far as membership participation. If the BOD needed to discuss things and didn't want/need/feel was appropriate for membership input they could "lock" the thread so only admins could respond.

just my 2c


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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:05 pm
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MusicMan wrote:
I could see the opportunity to discuss things in the admin forum as helpful. There have been some times when I wished I could have contributed to the conversation, and tried to through PM's, but never heard back from the person I PM'd or saw any evidence of my contribution in the thread.

One possible solution could be to have threads in the admin section that could be "locked" or "unlocked" as far as membership participation. If the BOD needed to discuss things and didn't want/need/feel was appropriate for membership input they could "lock" the thread so only admins could respond.

just my 2c


It doesn't quite work like that... If I were to lock a thread in the Admin Discussion right now... That would be it, locked and done with...

It would take some rather heavy phpBB modification to make specific threads available to the membership... And then that opens the door for "How come we weren't allowed to comment on Topic X, when we could comment on Topic Y"...

It's really an all or nothing, as far as I see it, I'm affraid...



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Posted on Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:30 pm
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Just a thought. And of course me not knowing ANYTHING about programming always suggests the most improbable and labor intensive solution. Confused


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Share what you know.

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