To all Admin - help please!
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Joined: February 05, 2010
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To all Admin - help please!
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Posted on Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:06 am
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I have a rather sticky problem. I was signed up to MAIL several years ago, but an associate off-line made me feel that I was not welcome. Since I now no longer have anything to do with said associate, and understand that she has left MAIL I rejoined. I was appalled to discover that several weaves I have worked on over the years have been put up on the site as being her creations. I don't care about anybody using them - I think anyone should be able to access any weave, as it all goes towards the greater good of the industry as a whole. However I am upset that this person insists on being credited every time a weave is used, when she didn't design them in the first place. Can anything be done, or should I just keep my projects to myself in future??? I really would like to spend more time on this forum, as I have had to give up my 9-5 drone job, and have the time I want to spend concentrating on my mail.

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3058
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Re: To all Admin - help please!
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Posted on Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:31 am
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FenrisB wrote:
I have a rather sticky problem. I was signed up to MAIL several years ago, but an associate off-line made me feel that I was not welcome. Since I now no longer have anything to do with said associate, and understand that she has left MAIL I rejoined. I was appalled to discover that several weaves I have worked on over the years have been put up on the site as being her creations. I don't care about anybody using them - I think anyone should be able to access any weave, as it all goes towards the greater good of the industry as a whole. However I am upset that this person insists on being credited every time a weave is used, when she didn't design them in the first place. Can anything be done, or should I just keep my projects to myself in future??? I really would like to spend more time on this forum, as I have had to give up my 9-5 drone job, and have the time I want to spend concentrating on my mail.


This situation raises an interesting point...

Technically, MAIL as a website does not recognize the original creator of a weave... Unless the submiter chooses to. What we recognize is the original Submitter of something.

There are proposed changes in the future version of MAIL (henceforth referred to as 3.0) to recognize creator (where known)... But that is all open to change, and I may just be making things up here...

...

However...

Getting back to the interesting point... Even assuming the weaves in question did belong to you, are you able to prove that they indeed were your creations?
Regardless of whether you are or not, what would you like us to do about it? We can't exactly 'move' the submission to your account, as the submitted content still belongs to that user.

ALL THAT BEING SAID...

We would much rather foster creativity here, than deal with legal nuances... So I'm sure with some conversation, we can get to the bottom of this situation Smile
Perhaps we can even contact the original submitter, and see if we can't keep everyone happy.



Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3058
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Re: To all Admin - help please!
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Posted on Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:32 am
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FenrisB wrote:
I have a rather sticky problem. I was signed up to MAIL several years ago, but an associate off-line made me feel that I was not welcome. Since I now no longer have anything to do with said associate, and understand that she has left MAIL I rejoined.


I should also note, your old account should still be on our servers... I should be able to help you reactivate it, provided you are able to prove sufficiently that it is indeed your account.

EDIT: There is no proof nessecary, really... I can PM you your old username, and you will be able to recover your password yourself, since it is set to use the same email address as your new account. Should you choose to use your original username instead of this one.



Joined: February 05, 2010
Posts: 3
Submissions: 0

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Posted on Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:52 am
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Thank you for your kind words! However, there is no point in contacting said member, we are related by marriage and due to some marital issues I think she would rather I drop dead! She certainly would not admit to taking ideas from someone else.
It is an interesting point re proving this - I suppose I only have the word of husband and friends - I would just like to know that, rather than claiming back credit, there should perhaps be some consideration in the future for people 'claiming' weaves - personally if aforementioned person hadn't been so adamant about it I wouldn't give a stuff - however said person has used her claims to actually undermine my business. I prefer the whole 'industry' to benefit as a whole, and am quite happy for any weave I use, whether I am the originator or not, to be passed on to anyone else. If I had my way, new weaves would be posted anonymously, to avoid exactly this problem.
As for my previous account, I would prefer to keep the new login, to avoid any accrimonious retaliation from said person.
Thank you again for such a quick response. Now I am off to work on my basket design for the competition!

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3058
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

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Posted on Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:16 pm
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FenrisB wrote:
Thank you for your kind words! However, there is no point in contacting said member, we are related by marriage and due to some marital issues I think she would rather I drop dead! She certainly would not admit to taking ideas from someone else.
It is an interesting point re proving this - I suppose I only have the word of husband and friends - I would just like to know that, rather than claiming back credit, there should perhaps be some consideration in the future for people 'claiming' weaves - personally if aforementioned person hadn't been so adamant about it I wouldn't give a stuff - however said person has used her claims to actually undermine my business. I prefer the whole 'industry' to benefit as a whole, and am quite happy for any weave I use, whether I am the originator or not, to be passed on to anyone else. If I had my way, new weaves would be posted anonymously, to avoid exactly this problem.
As for my previous account, I would prefer to keep the new login, to avoid any accrimonious retaliation from said person.
Thank you again for such a quick response. Now I am off to work on my basket design for the competition!


I only wish everyone could be as understanding... We have a duty to a submitter to protect their submissions, as it is their content. The picture and the description were taken and written by them.
Beyond that, we're really unconcerned as far as 'origination' is concerned. I'm certain there's weaves here created by one person, and submitted by another without credit... In a weave base this size, it is bound to happen.

This is possibly why we choose to recognize submitter, versus creator of a weave... I don't know... I am not completely well versed in 'The Origins' of MAIL...

I do know, however, that one of the proposed/dicussed revamps to the weave section involves forbidden advertising of business information, etc... Within a weave description...
Again, proposed, and I could be talking out of my backside... But hey.

Anyway... At the end of the day, no matter who claims what or why... You can sleep well knowing the truth in your mind.

I wish I had better things to tell you... But as I said, I only wish everyone could be as understanding.

Happy basket weaving!



Joined: April 15, 2002
Posts: 1823
Submissions: 1
Location: Calgary, AB. Canada.

Re: To all Admin - help please!
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Posted on Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:25 pm
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FenrisB wrote:
I was appalled to discover that several weaves I have worked on over the years have been put up on the site as being her creations. However I am upset that this person insists on being credited every time a weave is used, when she didn't design them in the first place. Can anything be done, or should I just keep my projects to myself in future?


MAIL is not an "ownership" registry, despite some people's attempts to use it as such.

It is even an encouraged practice, at least from me, to submit anything you cannot find as already being here, as long as the *content* of the submission is owned by the submitter. (As far as I can tell, you are not saying someone took your pictures and submitted them as their own).

For example, JPL9 is in the database as submitted by Lorraine. Lorraine did take those pictures, write that description, and was the first to submit it to the database. However, Lorraine did not invent JPL9, nor was she the first to weave it.

I can say with almost certainty, that the first person to make JPL9, was FerrousKnight, who is a long time user here. He made it, posted about it, but didn't bother to submit it.

Take JPL11, which Lorraine is also credited with submitting. JPL11 was first created by CShake, who is also an old user here.

However, neither of them invented the weave either. The person who invented the post-5 progressions of the JPL weaves, even defined them mathematically and wrote rendering software to display them, was Zlosk, who is *also* a long time user here. However, he only created up to JPL7, physically before stopping, and was the first person to do so. But.... Lorraine's also got JPL7 credited as first submitted by her, as Zlosk never submitted it.

I think Ferrous, CShake, and ZLosk didn't submit because they did not see silly progressions as actually being a new weave, and I know at least a couple of them wanted to discourage bloating the weavebase.

However, the practice of finding other weaves and submitting them is great. Some people, again, have presumed or tried to use MAIL's database as a way of claiming ownership or copyright over weaves, and this is not true, or even (in my opinion) legally possible.

As to whether you should keep things to yourself in the future, that is up to you. Note that if ego or a pat on the back is important to you, (and I say that with no malicious undertones, people are proud to show off what they've done and that's not bad), if you had submitted and shared your content here first, you would be the one with your username associated with the weave. Instead, that pat on the back goes to the person who first shared it with the community by submitting it. Beyond that, I would encourage you to share as much as possible, but it's up to you.

Quote:
However, there is no point in contacting said member, we are related by marriage and due to some marital issues I think she would rather I drop dead! She certainly would not admit to taking ideas from someone else. [...] however said person has used her claims to actually undermine my business.


To be blunt, I doubt the sincerity and gravity of anyone's claims where they have such obvious petty (justified or otherwise) motivations behind them. Any time money, or a personal spat could easily be at the core of someone's opinion, it seems very "coincidental" when their opinion of something being wrong just so happens to line up accordingly. I don't doubt you, just in terms of judging the degree of offense, or importance of the situation, I do question how big an issue this would be when money and personalities are removed from it.

Also, MAIL is not an appropriate venue for such a spat to occur, nor, certainly, is there going to be any official action taken on any subjective matters siding with either party. This is nearing the line of a grudge being masked as "honest concern", and cheap shots being made. So, just to reiterate which side of that line is appropriate to stay on.

Daemon Lotos wrote:
Beyond that, we're really unconcerned as far as 'origination' is concerned. I'm certain there's weaves here created by one person, and submitted by another without credit... In a weave base this size, it is bound to happen.

This is possibly why we choose to recognize submitter, versus creator of a weave... I don't know... I am not completely well versed in 'The Origins' of MAIL...


Originally, I don't think anyone really cared. People added who the inventor was if they knew, sometimes, for curiosity. When MAIL was founded it was really about people sharing and pooling knowledge. Pointing out the original inventor (if known) is actually a rather new thing, and I've been stressing for it to be encouraged not for crediting purposes, but for thoroughness, trivia, and historic purposes. I find the backstories of weaves interesting, and I know others do too. As people come and go, it's nice to record that history before it gets lost in time.

MAIL is not about crediting and ownership. It's about sharing and teaching. The only purpose of writing about the inventor is for knowledge purposes, not credit purposes.

Quote:
I do know, however, that one of the proposed/dicussed revamps to the weave section involves forbidden advertising of business information, etc... Within a weave description...
Again, proposed, and I could be talking out of my backside... But hey.


Actually, that's always been policy. If someone wants to associate their creations with their real name (hint: "Cynake" is neither my first, last, or middle name, my parents just weren't that cool), they can do that since it is content copyright to them (the real name). Or, if they want to say who the creator is, that's okay. But advertising is not allowed.

People create things. Businesses own things. We are not an ownership registry, nor can weaves even be owned.

There's very few occurrences of people spamming their business name. It was never acceptable policy, and going back 4 years, you'd find maybe 2 or 3 examples.. all of which from when people were so unfamiliar with MAIL's submission process and the weavebase so threadbare, they weren't sure whether they had to type in the "submitted by" part or not (you don't, it's autogenerated), and what to put there.

However, a change in duties had it sneak in all over the place, and for various reasons became politically difficult to try to enforce the old policy.

It's never been acceptable, the couple old occurrences should've been corrected rather than saying that because they slipped through the cracks, it was policy to allow advertising. Technically, they should be pruned all places it's found even now, but.. again, unfortunate political sensitivities make it not an issue worth starting an argument over (my opinion).

It's not really on the table for 3.0 any more than it is now. New suggested policies outline a little better that weave *images* should not be used for advertising, though it's a bit more difficult there because a picture is a whole finished product, whereas text is made of up components (words) and subject to editorial review and easy to correct. Text could (and probably should) be edited right now. Images, well, we just kinda have to say "Careful we don't let that happen in the future".

When 3.0 was being planned, anonymous submitting was discussed. But, generally dropped in favor of it being important to know who submitted things. Also, because at the time, some of us suspected the best way to get MAIL to grow was to recognize how much users helped and let them show this off. Nothing is set too much in stone. If you really think anonymous weave posting is the best policy and one you'd like to see in the future, start a discussion on it and try to gather some momentum. I myself don't see much a point in muffling the knowledge, though I do like to discourage feelings of ownership.

---

In short, that was all for elucidation. There is no issue here.

If you wanted your old account back, DL could help you with that issue. If you want weaves to say they're submitted by you, or deleted and your submissions put in their place, they won't be. You were not the one who took the time and effort to first share them with the community, (not something you're claiming) and that is the only thing the weavebase recognizes. If your images were used without your consent (something you are not claiming), that would be wrong, and we would try to get to the bottom of that.

You are grumpy about the actions of a particular user here, coincidentally, a user you have a personal grudge against on two fronts. If it's justified, I sympathize, but it's not an issue for us to deal with either way. And, MAIL isn't an appropriate venue for personal spats or drama of this manner. Thank you for bringing up your concerns in a mostly-tactful manner so far. Let's keep it that way.

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:07 pm
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just to agree and reiterate. in the future, the way to avoid this is to submit the weaves yourself, when you develop them. there is nothing we can do about your waiting too long to submit them.

i had this realization at one point.. if i come up with a weave and don't share it with the community, eventually someone else will. whether they come up with it on their own, or they see what i did and replicate it, i miss out. the way to get the kudos is to share the ideas.

also, if a member or admin ever makes anyone feel unwelcome, let someone know. i'm a good person to contact in regards to that. -everyone- is welcome to be here. this is not saying that people have to agree with each other, but the only people who aren't welcome are spammers.

kim


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

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