Another JPL question (JPL5, JPL7 and so on...)
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Another JPL question (JPL5, JPL7 and so on...)
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Posted on Sat May 02, 2009 12:51 pm
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After finally having mastered JPL, including reliably starting from scratch without references and joining ends, I wanted to give the higher progressions of JPL a shot. But I simply didn't get it right.

I thought, as JPL(3) is the ring size locked variant of Spiral 4in1, the progressed versions were S6-1 for JPL5, S8-1 for JPL7, S10-1 for JPL9 and so on. But when I searched a bit around on MAIL and elsewhere, I found THIS discussion thread, where JPL5 is referenced as the locked version of Spiral 8in1 and NOT S6-1 - and also images are shown, that look in fact like locked S8-1. But HERE an image is referenced and discussed as being JPL5, that looks much like a S6-1...

And now I'm a bit confused - can anyone help me out of this trap?

Edit: I searched a bit more around (on TRL I found something interesting - thanks to Cynake for that stunning animation) - and I think now, the JPL number equals the number of rings the moebius consists of, the JPLx is started with - and only the uneven moebiuses are able to be woven into a JPL variant with non-parallel ring rows all-around - and so JPL5 is in fact 'related to' a locked Spiral 8-1. Am I right?

-ZiLi-


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Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

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Posted on Sat May 02, 2009 5:47 pm
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Well, for starters, the JPL # is not an "in" number, like Euro 4 "in" 1, or Spiral 4 "in" 1. Not saying you thought it was, just pointing that out. The number in JPL refers to how many rings before it has completed one 360 degree rotation.

In normal JPL, this is 3. Hence why JPL is sometimes referred to as "JPL(3)".

In JPL(5), you have 5 rings all the way around before you are back where you started.

Zlosk has invented the formula for JPLs higher than 5. The original JPL is ambiguous whether it is simply a locked-by-tightness spiral, or whether other things are going on. A mathematical analogy would be that 2+2=4, and 2x2=4, but that doesn't mean that 3+3 = 3x3. That JPL(3) is a degraded version of Spiral4-1, is kinda like 2x2=4, a particular anomaly at that low size.

If I recall correctly, the "in" number for JPLs, goes like this:

[(JPL# * 2) - 2] = "in" number.

Exs)

JPL(3) = (3 * 2)-2 = 6 - 2 = 4. A 4 in 1 weave.
JPL(5) = (5 * 2)-2 = 10 - 2 = 8. An 8 in 1 weave.
JPL(7) = (7 * 2)-2 = 14 - 2 = 12. A 12 in 1 weave.
JPL(9) = (9 * 2)-2 = 18 - 2 = 16. A 16 in 1 weave.

Or, same formula expressed differently...

[(JPL# - 1) * 2] = "in" number.

...

So, naturally, you'd think that since JPL(3) is a 4-1 weave, and a size-constrained version of Spiral 4-1.. that JPL(5) is an 8-1 weave, and a size-constrained version of Spiral 8-1.

So did I. Wrong. Fail and frustration. It's not. Here's what JPL(9) looks like when you think it's simply a size-constrained version of Spiral 16-1:



Fail.

Anyone who's curious, this is how ridiculously complicated it is to build JPL(9):



Higher Res Version

JPL(3) is easy. JPL(5) is tough and not many have gotten it. JPL(7) is almost impossible, Zlosk got it first and is one of only a few people who've made it. When he made it, I think it was the toughest/most complicated weave ever made, but, it didn't stop there. As far as I know, FerrousKnight is the only person to have made JPL(9). Cshake has made JPL(11). There was some talk of competing all the way up to finish my animation, to JPL(27), but hopefully they were joking.

Here's JPL(3) all the way to JPL(27) and back:



WHEEE!

Anyway, for more research:

http://www.theringlord.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36542 <-- Zlosk's JPL7 thread. Lots of discussion about what the JPL pattern is.

http://www.theringlord.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36926 <-- My failthread, for JPL9, and more about what the JPL pattern is.

http://www.theringlord.org/forum/showthread.php?t=40262 <-- Ferrous's JPL9 thread.

http://www.theringlord.org/forum/showthread.php?t=40274 <-- CShake's JPL11 thread. It gets into further mutations of JPL, like a number of ring "skips", and other craziness that was so far over my head I ran away crying.

... back on topic of the Spiral vs. JPL differences...

Stealing Zlosks images:

Very tight Spiral 8-1:


JPL(5):


Note that they are not the same.

Here's another of his, showing that the first 50% isn't even "just" a mobius ball©:



There's a formula for how big of a mobius ball© you start off with, before it stops being "just" spiral and starts being JPL. Don't hold me to this, but I think it is (JPL#+1)/2 = Mobius start number. With JPL3, that number doesn't exist really, the way it's applied. With JPL5, that number is 3, with JPL 7 it's 4, with JPL 9 it's 5, etc.

Anyway, there's more info than you ever wanted Razz

Good luck using any of it Smile

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Posted on Sat May 02, 2009 6:22 pm
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1st: Thanks Cynake, for that really comprehensive response (as I reported, I have looked around - and found already your animation, besides many, but not all of the info given above).

So, diverting from the "spiral concept", but having adopted somewhat the moebius one, I seem to near success. At the moment it is a bit hard for me to decide, what the best AR might be - I guess just shy of 5 should work out. And I hope it won't be as hard as it was for me to get behind JPL3, that now seems to be one of the easiest weaves - AFTER having mastered it...

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: July 25, 2006
Posts: 958
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Location: Klamath Falls, Or.

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Posted on Sat May 02, 2009 6:48 pm
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Yeah....Jens Pind Linkage, the weave contradicts logic when you get to messing with the progressions.

The 6-1 version is, IMO, not a true JPL, but it's been dubbed JPL4....JPL5 is by definition, an 8-1. Each new ring goes back 4, as in an 8-1 Spiral, hooking 4 rings with each new ring.

In teaching this weave, I start folks with 5 colors in EC...the new ring will layer next to the same color ring(5th ring back)....

The contradictions come when playing with the patterns....the spiral patterns come from placing a different color/material every other link, or every third link, making either a two color tight spiral, or a looser spiral in three colors is possible.

So yeah, strange how you can make a consistant 2 color spiral pattern, as well as a 3 color spiral pattern...the every 4th link color variation just turns out looking random. JPL7 is just as "funny," actually, funnier.lol.(funny word, funnier, funny)HA! I'm in a funny mood this morning....JPL variations will do that to you.

I've got starter kits if anyones interested in trying JPL5....many materials and ga's.

Kodiak-

edit: Really nice reference post Cynake, thanks much, it'll help people trying...it'll sure be nice to finally get to a wiki style format to collaborate, compare and link from, say, a base JPL page.....always been my favorite weave(and thats saying alot), aaarg, haven't managed 11 yet though.

Oh, 4.8AR for JPL5...me anyway.


"Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty, find opportunity."
Chaincraft Mandrels

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Posted on Sat May 02, 2009 9:05 pm
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ZiLi wrote:
So, diverting from the "spiral concept", but having adopted somewhat the moebius one, I seem to near success.


Uh oh.

"Spiral" and "Mobius" are interchangeable in this part of this context. Let me try to explain that.

When you make Spiral 16-1, the first thing you do is create a 9-ring mobius ball©. The 10th ring is where things change, because it only goes through the previous 8, not all of them (it skips the very first ring).

The 9th ring goes through rings 1-8 (all of them).
The 10th ring goes through rings 2-9.
The 11th ring goes through rings 3-10.
The 12th ring goes through rings 4-11.
The 13th ring goes through rings 5-12.
The 14th ring goes through rings 6-13.
The 15th ring goes through rings 7-14.
The 16th ring goes through rings 8-15.
The 17th ring goes through rings 9-16.

... and now one single ring, ring # 9, is actually Spiral 16-1. It goes through 8 on the left, and 8 on the right.

As you add new rings, rings #10, 11, 12, 13.. etc.. will also be Spiral 16-1, as they are filled up by all the rings to the right of them.

Make sense?

That is Spiral. In Spiral you complete the first 50% of Spiral(#) by making a mobius ball©.

That is *NOT* JPL. In JPL, you complete (JPL#+1)/2 rings by making a mobius ball©.. but then it gets uglier and more complicated, and there's no more shortcuts. You have to understand what JPL is doing to advance any further.

I would try to explain further, but, I don't actually understand what JPL is. I've never made any. I was okay when I thought JPL = Locked Spiral, but I've never had higher JPL's make sense. I just know how far I can get and why.

Also, explaining complicated 3D orientations using language, and trying to be unambiguous about it, is probably a waste of time. Some people have tried, and they just ended up prattling on for pages without making any sense, and that was just for JPL(5).

Try out Zlosk's POVray script, using JPL(5) rather than trying to start off learning JPL(9) like I did Razz

Quote:
At the moment it is a bit hard for me to decide, what the best AR might be - I guess just shy of 5 should work out.


You'll have to experiment a little bit just because it is a JPL weave and it is so sensitive.

There exists a little bit of overlap between where JPL is positionally locked versus impossible. JPL has varying amounts of "tightness", but the range is quite narrow. A good rule of thumb is that JPL(#) should be your AR. JPL(3) works good with AR=3. JPL(5) works good with AR=5. Etc. Then, snug it down slightly so it's not quite as loose. Like Kodiak said, for JPL(5), 4.8 is good.

Springback will kill you. It's gotta be actual AR.

Quote:
And I hope it won't be as hard as it was for me to get behind JPL3, that now seems to be one of the easiest weaves - AFTER having mastered it...


Hrm. For comparison...

I got JPL(3), mentally, as soon as it was described to me, and I built it my first attempt without a tutorial.

I've written pages about the larger JPLs, seen step-by-step instructions, made animations, tried several times, but never made any.

I'm sure you'll get it eventually, as could I, if I wasn't so mad at it. Best of luck to you Razz

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Posted on Sat May 02, 2009 9:12 pm
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Thanks to you both, cynake and kodiak, i got it!

Besides the 'false JPL4' I was caught in first, I managed to do the real JPL5, including exploring the low AR limit (behaves like a gooseneck) - and nearing the high one (just near unwinding). Very Happy

The example was made with 1.6mm stainless wire wound on mandrels 6.5, 7.0, and 7.5mm; typical springback ratio with that wire is around 8% diameter increase. Interested ones should be able to do the AR maths themselves.

Edit @cynake: The moebius example is maybe a bit misleading - but in fact it is somewhat like that. In the higher versions jpl5 and so on it seems to me that it only matters in which direction the added rings have to be stuck through the existing ones, while in principle using the spiral technique.



Thanks again
-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: April 22, 2008
Posts: 1538
Submissions: 12

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Posted on Sat May 02, 2009 10:30 pm
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I'd love to learn JPL5 but I think that beyond that I'd require advanced booking in the nearest mental institute. I do admire everyone for their math and/or physics skills and I think JPL9 is just beautiful but I know better than to test my already iffy mental status by even trying that one.

I did try JPL5 once it worked (kinda) from the photo-tutorial here on the site; but It was just loose enough it didn't work as my AR was off enough that the rings had just that tiniest bit they could slip out of place against each other and screw it up. If anyone has other suggestions I'll listen.

Cynake, thanks for the explanations and the referred links, you're right on the one thread by cshake and jpl11 being enough to send MOST of us away crying from the difficulty of the explained discussion.

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Posted on Sun May 03, 2009 5:05 am
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I've been having fun with JPL5, too.

I ordered mandrels from Kodiak, and he sent me a couple JPL5 starter kits, one in EC and one in copper, nickel silver & brass along with starters. "A Challenge," he called it. So, to make it really challenging, I only used the starters for reference, starting from scratch with no tutorials. I learned a lot about JPL5 that day. Laughing It's been my just-for-fun project, so I haven't been able to put a lot of time into it.

I'm only half done with the tri-metal, which I started out with first. Instead of going with the spiral, I did a kinna-sorta inlay pattern, a 60 ring repeat. I was going to wait to post until I was all finished and had it all shiny-tumbled, but it's relevant now, so here's what I've got:

Mine ended up spiraling the opposite direction from Kodiak's.
Wait til you see what I have planned for the five color EC!


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Posted on Sun May 03, 2009 10:13 am
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Alrighty then, Talia, nicely done...fun, huh? The enameled copper's fun too, but slippery....so glad you got it, and from scratch, it's not quite so daunting with an example you can hold in your hands to examine....17/64th's niksil nipper links work for JPL7....I use a "G" and "F"....I was trying to figure sizes in the mandrel set I sent, the 17/64 is a bit tight in copper because of less springback, but 9/32 saw-cut will work for copper....oh, all 18awg.*whispers*jpl7jpl7jpl7youcan doit...

Kodiak-


"Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty, find opportunity."
Chaincraft Mandrels

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Posted on Sun May 03, 2009 5:06 pm
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...and it goes on - I seem to have mastered JPL5 - see that bi-tone spiraled example in Stainless+Bronze (1.2*~5.5mm; 5mm mandrel used) - spiraling comes automatically by alternating the ring materials when weaving. It's a little bit stiff for my taste, as the two materials have slightly different springback, maybe I retry using a slightly smaller mandrel (#9 or #10) for the more springy bronze wire to adjust diameters, as the steel-only starter is 100% right. Fortunately I have a complete transfer punch set for these problematic cases, where a weave is SOOO diameter sensitive...



-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: August 12, 2008
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Location: Ketchikan, Alaska

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Posted on Sun May 03, 2009 7:21 pm
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kodiak wrote:
Alrighty then, Talia, nicely done...fun, huh? The enameled copper's fun too, but slippery....so glad you got it, and from scratch, it's not quite so daunting with an example you can hold in your hands to examine....17/64th's niksil nipper links work for JPL7....I use a "G" and "F"....I was trying to figure sizes in the mandrel set I sent, the 17/64 is a bit tight in copper because of less springback, but 9/32 saw-cut will work for copper....oh, all 18awg.*whispers*jpl7jpl7jpl7youcan doit...

Kodiak-


Yes, having the starters for reference was a big help. The hardest part was getting the 'leans' right, but once I had that, it all fell into place. And yes, it is a fun weave! Once you get it started, it just goes. In fact, I think I'll be finishing mine today. Maybe take it outside and weave while my son blows bubbles... we finally have some real sunshine.

I will be giving JPL7 a try next (after the EC). Thanks for the mandrel advice, Kodiak. Have I mentioned how much I love my mandrel set? Smile

@Zili- It's looking great! I really never would have been able to tell your ARs were off on the Steel/Bronze if you hadn't mentioned it.


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Posted on Sun May 03, 2009 8:08 pm || Last edited by ZiLi on Sun May 03, 2009 8:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Talia wrote:
@Zili- It's looking great! I really never would have been able to tell your ARs were off on the Steel/Bronze if you hadn't mentioned it.


Oh that wasn't visible - but I felt it becoming stiffer when switching over to alternating rings, after having made around two inches of steel-only chain as a starter (this time I will preserve a starter piece, as beginning JPL5 is a real PITA). And THEN I took my calipers and noticed the slightly LARGER diameter of the bronze rings, that stiffened my chain - not by being too tight, but by pressing against their OUTSIDE neighbors! But these funky effects happen, when weaving near tightness limits of many weaves, that increasing ring sizes can make things stiffer and not - as expected - looser. If I had woven a bit larger rings from the beginning, or switched over completely to only bronze, I would not even have noticed that effect myself. But I WANTED to get the chain as round as possible, with the best looking ring lean that could be achieved, so I chose an AR just above the low limit. and only the alternating pattern gave me a short moment of head scratching.

-ZiLi-
Edit: Typo removed


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 3615
Submissions: 149
Location: Germany, Herxheim

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Posted on Sun May 03, 2009 8:39 pm
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@kodiak: As I want to give JPL7 a shot too, I ask you, if my projected choice (based on the hints you gave Talia) of an 8mm mandrel for 1.2mm stainless 316 wire and a typical springback ratio of around 9% using my personal coil and cut setup will be ok for JPL7 - that would result in a real AR of ~7.2 - or should I go a bit tighter to 7.5mm, what would result in an AR of ~6.8. And if using that bronze I have lying around (springback ratio around 12%) I would get ~7.4 or ~7.0.

Or do you propose another mandrel diameter - I have a complete assortment of transfer punches metric, imperial, 1-60, A-Z lying around for the purpose of making jewellery-sized material batches - besides my long bulk ring mandrels. I know, these transfer punches are slightly under-calibrated, but that can be taken into account, if you give me real needed ring ARs, so I don't have to find them besides finding the way to start JPL7.

TIA, -ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: July 25, 2006
Posts: 958
Submissions: 3
Location: Klamath Falls, Or.

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Posted on Sun May 03, 2009 9:23 pm
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ZiLi, that'd be a good starting place, IMO, the 8mm rod....you can go over an actual AR of 7, but it will have this interesting look of two inter-woven spirals...I'll get a pic up....6.85-6.9 is my preferred AR, actual. Coiling the 18awg phos. bronze I use, probably as stiff as yours, I use an "H" mandrel, or even a 17/64, like I said to Talia, so that springback with the 18awg amounts to around .2mm+....with your 1.2mm wire, I'd start with that 8mm, maybe even 5/16 or an "O" rod, 7.94-8.03mm dia. rods...see what your springback is like there.

Kodiak-


"Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty, find opportunity."
Chaincraft Mandrels

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Posted on Sun May 03, 2009 9:41 pm
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Thank you Kodiak for the JPL7 AR data - For easier making (being not always as well coordinated as I'd wish and having here more than an estimated dozen rings to hold in place until the weave begins to 'stabilize') I will start my 1st attempt with 1.6mm ER-307 wound on 10mm mandrel, 'accidentally' having ~6.95 as AR. And I will show the result, if I can get the nut cracked. But I take that challenge.

BTW: Around 24hrs. ago I started to hate JPL5 - now I LOVE it!

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

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