Looking for a denser weave
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Joined: November 29, 2008
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Looking for a denser weave
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Posted on Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:12 am
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I'm making LARP armor to particular requirements for 4-1, and vague requirements for other weaves. At the moment, the rings I have are 14ga 1/4" (tighter than I want to bother with) and 14ga 3/8", which would be perfect except they're a bit too large because of springback. Short of buying another mandrel, which I'll probably end up doing anyway, I'm looking for another weave that will be just slightly denser than 4-1, or at least not less so. Oops looks quite a bit denser than what I want, but maybe it would work. Because of the vague rules for anything that isn't E4-1, any weave that will not permit a BIC pen to pass through will probably be acceptable. Any ideas?

I'm also trying trinity with the 1/4" rings, and it seems reasonable. Is it likely to hang well once wrapped all the way around, or will it still twist? The patch I've got so far doesn't seem too bad. I'll probably use either this or E3 (I haven't tried that yet) since I've already started a piece for a friend, and I'll be combining it with parts in E4 of the same rings, but I'm interested in alternatives for other pieces as well.

Anything combining the two would also be great. I thought about dragonscale, but it doesn't seem like it'll work with my rings.

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Posted on Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:44 am
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Maybe you could try snakeskin. It would use both sizes and the weave is (obviously) still simple enought to do a shirt in. Denser than just the 14 ga. 3/8" rings but you would weave a bit faster than when you just use the 14 ga. 1/4" rings.

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Posted on Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:51 pm
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Have you tried Euro 6in1?


Maille Code
V2.0 T7.3 R5.4 Ep Feur MAg/Cu Wm$ Cbjpw$ G0.5/3.0 I1.5/12.0 N322.150 Pajs Dacdjsw Xa7g631p4t24w64 S88 Hipsu

Joined: August 14, 2006
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Posted on Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:26 pm
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Generally speaking, if 14g 1/4" E4 is too dense for your taste, then E4U (aka Oops) will definitely be too dense (comparison image, 14g 1/4" from TRL). E3 and Trinity both will be a little more open than E4 in 14g 1/4", but they will meet your requirements for what can pass through them. However, sheets of both Trinity and E3 have much different behaviors than E4 or E4U, so it may be an interesting challenge until you get a garment actually constructed.

I haven't done as much playing around with 3/8" id rings, so I can't give you a whole lot of feedback there other than E4U will be a denser/less open weave than E4 and both Trinity and E3 will be more open compared to E4.


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"When you have bigger wire, you make bigger maille. It's neat like that." -Cynake, January 15, 2009

Joined: March 12, 2006
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Posted on Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:54 pm
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Could always try your hand at a shirt of dragon scale Laughing

Joined: May 07, 2008
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Posted on Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:04 pm
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I second the snakeskin idea - just try it by making a sample patch of it done in your two sizes, and compare it to sample patches of E4-1 with both of your ring types. And snakeskin-like woven pieces are not too seldom, as in history armor relatively often was made of two ring types - if these differed significantly in diameter they were basically snakeskin.

-ZiLi-

BTW: Such a piece (as shirt made of punched and split rings) is on my todo list - to be made after my current in progress shirt is finished...


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: November 29, 2008
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Posted on Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:07 am
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Thanks for the suggestions. The snakeskin works well with these rings:


Looks good to me anyway. It's recognizably different and has good density. The large rings are cut using the score and break method because it makes them closer to the correct size, and the small ones are pinch cut because the squashing makes them a little larger (and because I already had them cut).

6-1 is doable but denser than I want. Maybe it would be good for reinforcement. Dragonscale probably won't work because the small rings won't quite fit inside the large ones.

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Posted on Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:07 am
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Dragonscale would also be a lot more time & ring intensive plus having seen an SCA fighter wearing a dragonscale shirt and not feeling a thing that hit him because it was so dense I couldn't imagine the need for a dragonscale type shirt for LARP given the requirements of the two are different (in my understanding...at least), but I could be wrong.

The snakeskin looks good in that its just different enough that its unique as compared to most shirts being e4in1. Only thought is how does it hang in comparison with regular 4in1, in both 'right' and 'wrong' directions?

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Posted on Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:50 am
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I'm not sure what the SCA requirements are for mail (I couldn't find any specifics about ring size or AR), just that you need armor that will protect you from rattan. The armor I'm making is for Dagorhir foam fighting, so it doesn't need to be that protective, but it needs to stand up to full-contact fighting and the general rigors of running about and being knocked around. It's absolutely not a lightest-touch sort of combat, though. There's no limit to how hard we can hit, and the hard hitters regularly snap their PVC or fiberglass weapon cores in half. I agree though that that dragonscale is probably not the best weave. Really the best option would probably be for me to get a 5/16" mandrel and just use 4-1. You wouldn't think the springback on my 3/8" rings would be a big deal, but it's enough to bring them up to about 7/16. To be legal that would require 12ga wire, which I don't want to bother with for just a 16th of an inch.

As for the snakeskin, it definitely stretches less, but it otherwise hangs just like E4-1 ought to.

Joined: December 29, 2008
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Posted on Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:28 am
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Okay, so on the off chance your boffer's core jabs through the foam, your armour needs to be tight enough negate any chance of being stabbed with fibreglass rods. Gotcha. In that case, since a pen barrel is roughly 5\16" Your 14ga rings need bare minimum of a 3 in 1 to pass. (assuming springback set them closer to 7/16")

Elfsheet would stand out brilliantly, though I havn't a clue how one would do angled seams on it. HP3-1 sheets look amazing and would easily be dense enough.

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Posted on Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:11 am
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gawthfrawg wrote:
... The snakeskin looks good in that its just different enough that its unique as compared to most shirts being e4in1. Only thought is how does it hang in comparison with regular 4in1, in both 'right' and 'wrong' directions? ...


It has to hang in the "right" E4-1 direction for the body barrel (as the example patch shown) - and it will behave roughly like a normal E4-1 that was made with the smaller rings only; being just a bit lighter. A little bit problematic might be the arms - if they are attached as usual (running the "wrong" way), I would prefer the dragonscale-like look, so the large rings have their bottom outside and top inside the weave.

But beware! The 5/16" limit applies here, as the pen barrel might penetrate the larger rings stuck through from some obligue direction. So you might have the necessity to make a snakeskin in 1/4" & 5/16" to fulfill the requirements - and remain to have a unique looking piece of armor.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: November 29, 2008
Posts: 17
Submissions: 2

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Posted on Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:11 am
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Charon wrote:
Okay, so on the off chance your boffer's core jabs through the foam, your armour needs to be tight enough negate any chance of being stabbed with fibreglass rods.


Not even that. Armor is not required at all, and I can't say I've ever heard of anyone getting stabbed by a broken core-they usually stay inside the foam. The sword will bend limply in a way it shouldn't, and then it's removed from the field before it can do any real damage. But the mail will have to survive the kind of hit that might do that. Whether it survives being stabbed by a fiberglass rod is not really relevant since that's an extraordinary situation and outside the rules.

ZiLi wrote:
It has to hang in the "right" E4-1 direction for the body barrel (as the example patch shown) - and it will behave roughly like a normal E4-1 that was made with the smaller rings only; being just a bit lighter. A little bit problematic might be the arms - if they are attached as usual (running the "wrong" way), I would prefer the dragonscale-like look, so the large rings have their bottom outside and top inside the weave.


Agreed, though turning the rings around so that happens on both sleeves will be awkward. The only way that might look good will be with a corduroy-like seam down the middle, with the "scales" going outward. Speaking of which, is corduroy a decent weave for a shirt, to avoid the seam? I suspect not, but I've never bothered to make it myself.

ZiLi wrote:
But beware! The 5/16" limit applies here, as the pen barrel might penetrate the larger rings stuck through from some obligue direction. So you might have the necessity to make a snakeskin in 1/4" & 5/16" to fulfill the requirements - and remain to have a unique looking piece of armor.


Rings of this size are specifically allowed. Whether a pen barrel can pass through a single ring is not important. I've found, as Charon says, the pen will not fit in a ring that has three or more others passing through it (and only with some difficulty through those with two), so it won't fit in the middle of the piece, which is how it will be tested. The purpose is to test the weave, not the individual rings. Though admittedly the pen test is not official - it's done because it roughly approximates the requirements for 4-1, and because there are no specific requirements for other weaves. My 4-1 with these rings actually passes this test, but they're just slightly smaller than the rules actually require, so I wanted to make the weave a little denser to be sure. While the mail needs to be strong (and it will be fine, I'm sure), the requirements seem to be intended mainly to keep people from making cheesy super-light mail and getting to count it as armor for an extra hit.

Joined: February 01, 2009
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Posted on Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:21 am
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To change the direction of the 'scale effect' you would only need to switch over between big and small rings.
So where you would normally have a large ring put a small one and vice versa.

I don't know if you could do a straight switch you might need to put one row of all large rings in between.

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Posted on Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:16 pm
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Good point! A strait switch does work:



In fact, it will probably be very difficult to switch to a row of all large rings because they'd bunch together, and a row of all small rings would squeeze the large rings next to it, making them have to bunch to fit. So a straight switch seems like the only option. Though it creates a seam wherever you switch it. But luckily, the piece I'm starting now will have no sleeves.

Joined: May 07, 2008
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Posted on Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:48 pm
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Maybe that row switch would look well as 'centerline' switch of the shirt, or maybe make a switch every seventh or ninth row or so... Might look outstanding, such a 'pinstripe'berk. And a regular alternating wide-narrow-wide-narrow... pattern would surely look well too, even for bracelets, belts, etc...

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

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