Voting and other issues
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Joined: August 05, 2010
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Posted on Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:53 pm
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MusicMan wrote:
Never once did you (mithrilweaver) ask to be considered for a position on the board in this discussion, or start a poll in another forum to find out the communities thoughts on your issues.


I recall once. I've read a lot of references to "other discussions", but they're not publicly searchable (so I can't verify their validity).

This is one of my favorite features of M.A.I.L.: pretty much everything is made public. It allows link-mongers like me to sift through data firsthand.

mithrilweaver wrote:
the issue is there is no viable way for me to get a vote on the issues i've outlined. i just can't get the people here to convince anyone on the bod to initiate a vote. i've tried.


I'm in agreement with you on this. DL tried to address this exact topic 4 years ago (in the history lesson link I put in my last post).

mithrilweaver wrote:
this forum is technologically old school. no one comes here and if they do, they are jumped on quickly if they venture out of the norm. the pressure is heavy and constant.


Yeah, sometimes the members do that too. Honestly, my earliest memories of this forum was Zili "correcting" information that I had shared, to which I shot an unhappy PM to him. I was surprised by the response (paraphrasing here): "Those points are as valid as mine, you should add them to the thread".

mithrilweaver wrote:
i have no other options to get the change i desire. i have to move on and put my energy into a platform that i think will be different.


I feel like there has always been this disconnect with the ideas you want M.A.I.L. to be and what it actually is. The entire fact that you asked if M.A.I.L. could be bought and re-purposed for your needs exemplifies this disconnect.
I'm not calling you wrong on wanting those things, but I also don't think these ideas match what this community is. I'm on the same side as you for wanting the site to own the images and update them as the community wishes. I've read (and contributed to) a handful of threads on this over the years on that topic. The community disagrees with us. This is the exact reason for why you can remove all content you've contributed -- because you own it, not M.A.I.L.


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// Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Eo.n Fper MFe.s Wsm Caws G0.8-1.6 I2.4-8.0 Pn Dcdejst Xw1 S07

Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 734
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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:21 am
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TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
MusicMan wrote:
Never once did you (mithrilweaver) ask to be considered for a position on the board in this discussion, or start a poll in another forum to find out the communities thoughts on your issues.


I recall once. I've read a lot of references to "other discussions", but they're not publicly searchable (so I can't verify their validity).

This is one of my favorite features of M.A.I.L.: pretty much everything is made public. It allows link-mongers like me to sift through data firsthand.

mithrilweaver wrote:
the issue is there is no viable way for me to get a vote on the issues i've outlined. i just can't get the people here to convince anyone on the bod to initiate a vote. i've tried.


I'm in agreement with you on this. DL tried to address this exact topic 4 years ago (in the history lesson link I put in my last post).

mithrilweaver wrote:
this forum is technologically old school. no one comes here and if they do, they are jumped on quickly if they venture out of the norm. the pressure is heavy and constant.


Yeah, sometimes the members do that too. Honestly, my earliest memories of this forum was Zili "correcting" information that I had shared, to which I shot an unhappy PM to him. I was surprised by the response (paraphrasing here): "Those points are as valid as mine, you should add them to the thread".

mithrilweaver wrote:
i have no other options to get the change i desire. i have to move on and put my energy into a platform that i think will be different.


I feel like there has always been this disconnect with the ideas you want M.A.I.L. to be and what it actually is. The entire fact that you asked if M.A.I.L. could be bought and re-purposed for your needs exemplifies this disconnect.
I'm not calling you wrong on wanting those things, but I also don't think these ideas match what this community is. I'm on the same side as you for wanting the site to own the images and update them as the community wishes. I've read (and contributed to) a handful of threads on this over the years on that topic. The community disagrees with us. This is the exact reason for why you can remove all content you've contributed -- because you own it, not M.A.I.L.


Am I and DL not important parts of the community? Wink

I’d say the community is Deeply divided on the issue. Otherwise I agree with your post.

Joshua, the community Would be at a great loss If you removed your content from MAIL.


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: June 20, 2012
Posts: 329
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Location: France

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Posted on Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:18 am
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I see a lot of discussions here, but not so much proposals or a concrete description of what the problem is.
What is really needed to move forward at this point, is the opinion of ppl refraining to submit weaves or use the forums, to know WHY they don't want to.

I don't recall anyone in this discussion or another not agreeing the weave database should be re-worked. The problem is how to do it while respecting the submitter' rights. I fully agree to DL's plan.

For what I understand, the only problem mentioned restraining people to submit new weaves is that the weave owner is not correctly documented on MAIL?
I'd like to be proven otherwise.
Weave owner is not documented at all; as it has been explained many times over the years, weaves are not owned by anyone. Descriptions, images and patterns are, but not weave.
Maybe redesigning the weave pages to give less visibility to the original submitter's name will be all that's needed to content them?
Or a mention "Submitter may not be the inventor of this weave"?

I'll post a mock-up latter.

Joined: August 30, 2008
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Posted on Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:53 pm
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Shirluban wrote:
I see a lot of discussions here, but not so much proposals or a concrete description of what the problem is.
What is really needed to move forward at this point, is the opinion of ppl refraining to submit weaves or use the forums, to know WHY they don't want to.

I don't recall anyone in this discussion or another not agreeing the weave database should be re-worked. The problem is how to do it while respecting the submitter' rights. I fully agree to DL's plan.

For what I understand, the only problem mentioned restraining people to submit new weaves is that the weave owner is not correctly documented on MAIL?
I'd like to be proven otherwise.
Weave owner is not documented at all; as it has been explained many times over the years, weaves are not owned by anyone. Descriptions, images and patterns are, but not weave.
Maybe redesigning the weave pages to give less visibility to the original submitter's name will be all that's needed to content them?
Or a mention "Submitter may not be the inventor of this weave"?

I'll post a mock-up latter.


For those curious, that discussion is continued: http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=20288



Joined: March 11, 2010
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Posted on Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:50 pm
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Quote:
Or a mention "Submitter may not be the inventor of this weave"?
This is actually done when needed in the description. I've run across weaves recently that specified that the submitter was not the weave owner.

I have to agree with MW on a point though. Concrete proposals drafted and discussed are nice but atm pointless. Your charter allows for votes by active membership. What active membership? You want to hold discussions here instead of facebook groups and I understand the reasons for wanting that but its just not happening. These forums are stagnant and talking about these issues or worse, putting them to a vote in this context feels almost like a backroom deal. The majority of the users of this site visit the weaves library. We are talking about things integral to how that works but those people are not here to voice their needs. MW is at least trying to relay that info to you. I don't think this process is going well for either side at this point but it isn't all on him. Y'all got to realize, even if someone took the time to draft a well-written proposal for changes, the discussion and vote would be engaged with by a tiny minority of the users it would affect. Short of posting a link to the topic on facebook and asking the users there to register and engage with this process, this isn't going to move forward in a viable way.

You are not listening to the voices that you are all proposing to affect. You are not even asking them to be a part of the conversation.

(PS. and yes, I'm aware the recent ventures into facebook were made and did not go well. I do not believe those discussions were entered into with a willingness to fairly discuss these issues by either party.)

Joined: August 30, 2008
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Posted on Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:22 pm
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This thread is a little bit like beating a dead horse, and I already contemplated locking it, as mithrilweaver seems to have lost any desire to engage. And I'm loathe to see him turn into a punching bag...
That said, there is still some constructivity coming out of this thread, so...

StudioCastile wrote:
Quote:
Or a mention "Submitter may not be the inventor of this weave"?
This is actually done when needed in the description. I've run across weaves recently that specified that the submitter was not the weave owner.

I have to agree with MW on a point though. Concrete proposals drafted and discussed are nice but atm pointless. Your charter allows for votes by active membership. What active membership? You want to hold discussions here instead of facebook groups and I understand the reasons for wanting that but its just not happening. These forums are stagnant and talking about these issues or worse, putting them to a vote in this context feels almost like a backroom deal. The majority of the users of this site visit the weaves library. We are talking about things integral to how that works but those people are not here to voice their needs. MW is at least trying to relay that info to you. I don't think this process is going well for either side at this point but it isn't all on him. Y'all got to realize, even if someone took the time to draft a well-written proposal for changes, the discussion and vote would be engaged with by a tiny minority of the users it would affect. Short of posting a link to the topic on facebook and asking the users there to register and engage with this process, this isn't going to move forward in a viable way.

You are not listening to the voices that you are all proposing to affect. You are not even asking them to be a part of the conversation.

(PS. and yes, I'm aware the recent ventures into facebook were made and did not go well. I do not believe those discussions were entered into with a willingness to fairly discuss these issues by either party.)


Given the risk of beating this subject into the ground...

Quote:
What active membership? You want to hold discussions here instead of facebook groups and I understand the reasons for wanting that but its just not happening. These forums are stagnant and talking about these issues or worse, putting them to a vote in this context feels almost like a backroom deal. The majority of the users of this site visit the weaves library. We are talking about things integral to how that works but those people are not here to voice their needs.


Without wanting to sound uncaring, or unkind...
If a user is willing to "take advantage" of the information stored here, while at the same time being unwilling to participate in any form of discussion here on the forums, that is on them.
The reason discussion is kept here, is to ensure that it is all in one place, searchable, and publically auditable.
As I did point out on Facebook prior to being blocked.

I will firmly disagree with your perception that MW was attempting to "relay" information, given the direction the discussion took in a hurry, when met with anything other than absolute acquiescence.
While I strongly believe that he has insight into the mindset of a not insignificant portion of the community, I also strongly believe that personal issues have clouded the conversation to the point that a simple discussion in an attempt to distill meaning from an incredible vague and problematic set of demands was viewed as a dead end.
(To the contrary, I'd say that discussion has revitalized some significant contributors to the MAIL site to speak loudly once more.. But I digress.)

----

Regarding anything else, it boils down to this:
I have attempted, and always will attempt, to move forward in a positive fashion. Acting in good faith both in cooperation with as well as on behalf of the active membership, as well as the community at large.

A draft of proposal for changes, well written or otherwise, isn't needed. Hell, a vote isn't even needed.
You want something to change? Speak up. Throw me a feature request, point out a bug, or say "Hey, wouldn't it be nice if ____ did ____ instead."

Kvetching outside of MAIL to people who aren't responsible for the site can't possibly be expected to enact positive changes (or really, any changes) on MAIL itself.

Quote:
You are not listening to the voices that you are all proposing to affect. You are not even asking them to be a part of the conversation.

(PS. and yes, I'm aware the recent ventures into facebook were made and did not go well. I do not believe those discussions were entered into with a willingness to fairly discuss these issues by either party.)


As I stated several times in those Facebook posts. Discussions regarding MAIL need to be had here, on MAIL. I did also, during the short period of time prior to my blockage and removal, attempt to assist a few users who vocalized issues they had had with the site.

As you may have noticed, I'll discuss just about anything. Coif LoL
I spend the "working" half of my life, working for an arms-reach Not-For-Profit theatre that exists as a local board within the City.

Community Politics, Not-For-Profit Board Procedures, and Appeasement of Volunteer Corps, while maintaining strong public positive sentiments, and providing the kind of content that will create engagement is all kind of my raison d'etre.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force them to drink...
You can build a website, with a huge database of content, provide a tab in the menu right next to Library labeled "Community" -- But you can't force people to interact.
If they don't want to interact, that is their choice, and a perfectly acceptable one.
But it leaves us in the unfortunate position of having to act in their best interests, with what data we do have.

Could we chase people down on outside sources? Perhaps.
In fairness, that has been attempted in the past, and resulted in various BOD members over the years being blocked, or banned, on other sites or groups. It gets tiring, eventually.

----

TL:DR;

MAIL has moved forward in the past, and will move forward in the future. In a constructive and (hopefully) forever improving fashion.
Those who want to engage in discussion, and be a part of that process are always encouraged to do so, and welcomed with open arms.



Joined: March 10, 2015
Posts: 45
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Posted on Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:42 pm
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StudioCastile wrote:
Your charter allows for votes by active membership. What active membership? You want to hold discussions here instead of facebook groups and I understand the reasons for wanting that but its just not happening. These forums are stagnant and talking about these issues or worse, putting them to a vote in this context feels almost like a backroom deal.


I disagree. Facebook is a terrible platform for hosting longer-term planning discussions. Different users are shown comments in different orders, a user deleting a comment or post also deletes other users' replies to it, and there are no advanced search features.

In contrast, forums like this are far more transparent. I can dig through years of discussions on a specific topic to understand why decisions were made. Facebook groups make that history opaque.

Joined: March 11, 2010
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Posted on Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:59 am
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I seem to have been massively misunderstood on a point or two, so first of all, I am not suggesting discussions about the future of MAIL belong in any way on FB. I am suggesting that everyone on FB that uses this site thinks nothing of any worth happens in these forums and therefore has literally not checked them in years. If you want to discuss the tools they use, it seems fair to let them know that the discussions are here to get involved with. I strongly believe the vast majority of them would engage with you about these topics but are unaware they are being discussed here.

I did say I understand why discussion should be kept here, and I do. And I agree with it. I was 23 hours late to the discussions you were involved in on FB and tracking down everything you had to say and putting together some semblance of a timeline was hell. So yeah, I get it, these forums are far better as an archive for official business and I am 100% good with that.



Quote:
You want something to change? Speak up. Throw me a feature request, point out a bug, or say "Hey, wouldn't it be nice if ____ did ____ instead."
DL, you know 100% I would, but this is bigger than a feature request. Policy discussions and the overall direction of the site are not a "fire off a PM" sort of situation.

All I was asking to see happen and all I am still suggesting is for a leadership voice from this site to post in the larger FB groups that major policy discussions are underway that may affect the future of this site so if anyone wants to be a part of that discussion, they should log in or sign up here and join the discussion. I also suggest turning off comments in the post and giving a direct link to the League Business forum.

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